No. What do you have? — RogueAI

The suicide rate for post transitioners is a lot higher than for the non-trans population of the same age. I'll have to go back and find it if you're interested.

In the meantime, David Bell, is a good source for understanding what went wrong in gender affirming care for youths, and what we learned in the process.

You, sir, are contributing to the "Spiral of Silence". — Jeremy Murray

I'm here. I'm making noise.

While your passion is apparent, I've not been persuaded to reconsider my view. Your tone is confrontational rather than enquiring, your evidence one-sided and your logic dubious.

Cheers.

Your tone is confrontational rather than enquiring, your evidence one-sided and your logic dubious. — Banno

I asked you over and over again for either evidence or sophisticated argument. That's enquiry.

You sat here trolling people with comments that refused to reveal your position, or any evidence? That's confrontational.

My evidence is one-sided? How would you know? You didn't read or engage with any of it.

My logic dubious?

Leftish logic bro Banno? makes a bunch of pat rhetorical objections, fails to engage with anything?

All you had to do, at any point, was engage me with evidence.

You are refusing to do so. I assume that is because you can't. The evidence of our exchange reads for itself.

Listen man, sincerely, and no more trolling you back.

If you care about trans people, as you assert, and I believe you, steelman-style, then you need to know a hell of a lot more about trans issues than you do.

Some of those trans people you care about are going to call you out for not having had a critical eye on the single greatest failure of our medical system of the 21st century.

Respectfully, I'm not saying 'cheers' back to you. I do not enjoy lazy disingenuity.

I asked you over and over again for either evidence or sophisticated argument. — Jeremy Murray

And ignored the reasons given for not doing so. I didn't come here for a mud wrestle, a he-said-she-said yawn fest. Your accusations of trolling are feeble, your ad homs hackneyed.

Basically you are being a bit of a dick. Perhaps your aim was to change my mind, but the result has been to reinforce my view of an unreasoning, wilfully ill-informed and ideologically driven opposition to trans discussions.

Keep going, if you like. encourage me to admire your views even less.

Someone a while ago made a joke about me doing quantum mechanics of gender here, and I guess I’ve moved on to quantum field theory of gender now. — Pfhorrest

Neat analysis. Cool. Makes a mess of the conservative desire to force everyone into one of two fixed boxes because complexity and ambiguity make them uncomfortable.

I can see why you might prefer to maintain some distance from this discussion.

CASS review

You're right. Puberty blockers alone don't cause infertility. In combination with gender affirming hormones they're more likely to, but It's really the GAS surgery that ends fertility and sexual function. I misunderstood that.

Puberty blockers were outlawed in Britain for people under 18 because there's no evidence that they accomplish what they're supposed to. Other countries including the US are following their lead.

I asked you over and over again for either evidence or sophisticated argument. — Jeremy Murray

And ignored the reasons given for not doing so. — Banno

your reason for not doing so is that you 'think I'm a jerk' (have no evidence). You could prove me wrong at any point by providing evidence. You don't, so you continue with the sad ad hominems and the talking points delivered to you by groupthink.

Keep going, if you like. encourage me to admire your views even less. — Banno

I couldn't care less what you think of me, and you have no idea what my views are.

I view you as practice. Fish in a barrel, although I feel slightly guilty actually spelling that out. I'm not being kind. You are not being kind. At least my premise isn't destroying the lives of young people.

Do you actually work with trans people? Are you simply lying about that? I am forced to ask you that question because you refuse to provide evidence of anything you say.

Makes a mess of the conservative desire to force everyone into one of two fixed boxes because complexity and ambiguity make them uncomfortable. — Banno

So, is it fair to conclude that you are talking about me here?

I am not conservative, nor do I believe in the 'two fixed boxes' premise. As I have stated and written in my responses to you.

Perhaps your aim was to change my mind, but the result has been to reinforce my view of an unreasoning, wilfully ill-informed and ideologically driven opposition to trans discussions. — Banno

My goal is to improve outcomes for young people. And to improve outcomes for trans people. I'm not sure I'm the one with the unclear goals?

Your goal appears to be conforming morally, as it is written, so that conformists like yourself can feel good about themselves while doing nothing.

"wilfully ill-informed and ideologically driven opposition"

you must be a mediocre university professor? Or just, a shitty person?

quantum mechanics of gender my ass.

Puberty blockers were outlawed in Britain for people under 18 because there's no evidence that they accomplish what they're supposed to. Other countries including the US are following their lead. — frank

Thanks for being candid. I have a bit of an issue with legislating such "protections". Probably a hang over from studying Popperian ad hoc social engineering. I prefer to see the decisions made "locally" than "globally", except in the case of evidence-based demonstrated harm. The first finding in CASS is - lack of such an evidence base. Then noting "conflicting views among clinicians regarding appropriate treatment."

The recommendations lean in the right direction. (edit)

Keep going, if you like. encourage me to admire your views even less. — Banno

it's working.

The recommendations lean in the right direction. — Banno

I agree. They basically transitioned a lot of kids who weren't actually transgender. That will not be happening in the future because it will be against the law.

. I prefer to see the decisions made "locally" than "globally", except in the case of evidence-based demonstrated harm. The first finding in CASS is - lack of such an evidence base. Then noting "conflicting views among clinicians regarding appropriate treatment." — Banno

You've got a fairly profound misapprehension about how medine works. You'll catch up eventually.

That will not be happening in the future because it will be against the law. — frank

Not too keen on that.

You've got a fairly profound misapprehension about how medine works. — frank

I'm involved in health consumer advocacy hereabouts, so I hope not - and doubt it, since I get to hear more than my share of horror stories. I do hope for the best, though. Evidence based practice is in the consumer's interest. Legislation tends to be either misguided or too slow.

. I have a bit of an issue with legislating such "protections" — Banno

You have an issue with legislating against an ineffective, toxic, destructive medical practice? Big fan of leeching and bleeding the patient, are you?

Think medical science is a social construct?

"Popperian ad hoc social engineering".

These words mean nothing unless you provide examples. (and yes I know what you meant). That's an appeal to authority that you don't have.

The first finding in CASS is - lack of such an evidence base. Then noting "conflicting views among clinicians regarding appropriate treatment."

The recommendations lean in the right direction. — Banno

Banno, this issue is likely going to reverse in the next few years. You obviously live in the US or Canada, because the rest of the world, including the gold standard countries and the gold standard practitioners of affirmative care models, everyone credible already knows yours is, at best, an amoral stance that got things wrong.

At worst, your stance is 'evil', in the utilitarian sense.

And frankly, if I were a trans person reading your 'defense' of trans people, I'd be offended too.

I'm involved in health consumer advocacy hereabouts — Banno

Right. "Health consumer advocacy hereabouts".

So, not even an expert in the field you claim to be expert in

...keep going....

Not too keen on that. — Banno

Dude. It's already against the law in the UK. 27 US states have outlawed it. A federal ban is coming in the US. It's against the law in freaking Sweden.

I'm involved in health consumer advocacy hereabouts, so I hope not - and doubt it, since I get to hear more than my share of horror stories. I do hope for the best, though. Evidence based practice is in the consumer's interest. Legislation tends to be either misguided or too slow. — Banno

Banno. We don't approve medical treatments up until they're shown to be dangerous. We trial them. Rule 1 of medicine: do not experiment on 13 year old girls.

There's a difference between outlawing and not approving. That's what I'm drawing your attention to.

There's a difference between outlawing and not approving — Banno

If it's not approved, it's against the law.

Unless we have the difficult situation where an approved drug is blocked by legislation from being used for it's approved purpose.

In January, the Queensland Government issued a Health Service Directive that prohibits public hospitals and health services from initiating puberty blockers (Stage 1 treatment) or gender-affirming hormones (Stage 2 treatment) for new patients under 18 diagnosed with gender dysphoria. This directive was done following concerns about prescribing practices at a clinic in Cairns and is pending the outcome of an independent review.

Causing a bit of a stink. So should governments be permitted to overrule on such issues apparently on religious and ideological grounds, or is it better to leave it to those doing the work.

See The fight to overturn Queensland’s trans ban

This is the part you're not getting. Trans activists fucked up. They went too fast without research to show their approach was beneficial. They did more harm than good. Read the whole article this quote comes from. What Bell is saying is exactly the same thing a number of American clinic whistle blowers said.

It is vital to distinguish between gender dysphoria and transgender . The former refers to childhood disturbance in relation to the sexed body, the latter is an umbrella term and is easily used to foreclose exploration

Gender dysphoria is most commonly transient, as evidenced by the high proportion who desist, its socially contagious nature in teenage girl peer groups, and by the testimony of large numbers of detransitioners. Its common comorbidities suggest that it is probably one contemporary means of expressing adolescent distress, alongside depression, anxiety, self-harm and eating disorders, among young people with histories of childhood trauma and those on the autistic spectrum. For these children, a therapeutic approach which is neutral and exploratory is essential, locating their gender dysphoria in the context of their personal histories, and recognising that it may be a temporary expression of their wider distress . — David Bell

Trans activists fucked up. — frank

Agreed.

And honestly, I find it hard to wrap my head around the absolute shit tsunami of suffering that has been created by all of these invasive medications and procedures on children who may very well have been 'going through a phase'.

In a hundred years, people will be looking back at this in the same way we look back at lobotomies and witch burnings - like we are primitive savages. Perhaps we are.

1. Gender and sex are distinct
2. Bathrooms ought be separated by sex, not gender
— Michael
Exactly. 1 and 2 establish that it would be off-topic to discuss bathrooms in a discussion about gender. You're making my argument for me. — Harry Hindu

No, because many disagree with (2). They will claim that bathrooms ought be separated by gender, not sex. — Michael

You're failing to provide reasoning as to why bathrooms should be divided by gender when they have been divided by sex AND sex and gender are distinct. Why would you even think that bathrooms should be divided by gender if sex and gender are distinct concepts? It's no different than asserting that bathrooms should be divided by species. Sex and species are distinct concepts, as are sex and eating ice cream, sex and astronauts, etc. Sex is distinct from a great many things, (bathrooms could just as easily be divided by those that are eating ice cream and those that aren't or by those that are astronauts and those that aren't), so why would you think bathrooms should be divided by gender rather than the great many other things sex is distinct from? What is the relationship between sex and gender that is different than the relationship between sex and being an astronaut? What is the relationship between sex and gender?

I explained it quite clearly. To say that trans women can't use women's bathrooms because they're not biologically female but that intersex people can use women's bathrooms even though they're not biologically female is special pleading. — Michael

You didn't because you keep asserting that gender and sex are distinct but make statements like this where you are grouping sex and gender together.

You are the one claiming that women's bathrooms are not exclusively for biological females. I'm asking how that does not prevent anything from using the public restroom.
— Harry Hindu

The same thing that already prevents them (or doesn’t, in those cases where a stray cat or bird enters a bathroom).

You’re not making any sense. — Michael

If we're talking about making changes to bathrooms to accommodate certain beings, then the same can be done for animals by creating entrances that enable animals to enter the public restroom more easily. You're avoiding the question as to why you would think of gender when discussing sex if they are both distinct.

But since then I have realized that both bearing and orientation can apply independently to gender as well as to sex, so in addition to the three things at the end of last paragraph, there’s three social parallels of them: your gender, your gender bearing (how you feel about how society categorizes you, are you comfortable with it or do you wish it was different and if so how), and your gender orientation (what gender you find attractive in others). — Pfhorrest

Sounds overly complicated, like you're performing mental gymnastics here.

Why are we even talking about sex in a discussion about gender if they are distinct? It seems to me that when a trans person feels uncomfortable with how society categorizes them it is when society is categorizing them by their sex, not their gender. To categorize someone by their gender would be sexist.

I actually don't understand how biological absolutism has anything to do with the struggles of blacks and gays. How is it even vaguely related?
— frank

I have no idea. Ask the posters — Malcolm Parry

frank is asking you.

There is a fundamental difference between trans and other issues.
A Black person is black, a homosexual is homosexual, A trans woman is not a woman. — Malcolm Parry

This where it started. I'm not sure what your comparison was intended to show by way of 'fundamental difference', but it was ill judged and unhelpful. Obviously, since race is socially constructed, it makes for a very poor comparison with sex differentiation to the extent that you are arguing that it is absolute and inalterable in every case. On the other hand, to the extent that gender is also socially constructed, the comparison can be made to some profit, but then, in terms of gender, a trans woman exactly is a woman, just as one who "passes" for white exactly is white.

A black person isn't trying to escape either kind of recognition. A black person says:

1. recognize the biological truth that I'm human, just like you.
2. recognize the social construction of blackness, and notice your own latent assumptions about me because I fit that category. Now refer back to 1.

The trans woman is saying:

1. ignore the biological facts, that I'm a man
2. treat me as the social construction I elected.

There was a time when I tried to understand what the trans-woman is saying. At this point, my answer is this: I'll treat you as a human. I'll avoid using pronouns, because I've got other things on my mind than how you want to be addressed. . As for sports and restrooms, biology is important in both cases. Be prepared to engage according to your biology.

I answered him.

terms of gender, a trans woman exactly is a woman, — unenlightened

Ok.

Our daughters are only slightly black, but are still black. — unenlightened

At what point is a person white or black?

At what point is a person white or black? — RogueAI

He derailed his own thread by misinterpreting my point which was only to say that Trans women are not women. (He disagrees with me on that one) I only mentioned black people and homosexuals because, I thought , (wrongly) that someone else was equating the treatment of blacks, homosexuals and trans people as the same. My point is that there is a fundamental difference with trans people.
Your question is a great one. I am a white European and I have friends from Nigeria who are black. Where the line stops from being black to white is dependent upon definition and (I assume) how society views the person. Luckily, where I live it doesn’t matter because it’s a nice part of UK where everyone gets on together.

At what point is a person white or black? — RogueAI

You might as well ask 'at what height is a person tall or short?' Make up an answer in situations when you need to decide that is appropriate to the situation. Some fairground rides have a minimum height for safety reasons, and this is set by the physicality of the ride not the person. At the make-up counter, various shades are available Hairdressers have various products available to more ore less nappy hair.

The question I think one ought to ask as a philosopher is "Why do you ask?" And the answer mostly given in this thread and others comes down to 'rape culture'. Allow me to pontificate a little:

Patriarchal capitalism requires rape culture in order to control the sexual activity of women. The sexuality of women has to be controlled so that the succession of the kingship, or lordship, or property owner can be secured to his offspring and not another's. It must therefore be the case that for a woman to have sex with anyone but her owner is a disaster worse than death. Rape being established as the unspeakable trauma from which there is no recovery, by means of strong taboos on nakedness and so on, the control of women on safety grounds becomes justified, and the idea of 'unwanted pregnancy' comes into being.
The whole social importance of sex springs from the simple fact that men cannot know their own children from those of another except by controlling (protecting) their women. Thus virginity is a virtue in a woman, and a weakness in a man. Consider any aspect of cultural sexual differentiation in terms of this simple explanation, and see if it is explained. Foot-binding? Keeps the women close to home. etc.

You're failing to provide reasoning as to why bathrooms should be divided by gender when they have been divided by sex AND sex and gender are distinct. — Harry Hindu

I don’t think bathrooms should be divided by gender. I think bathrooms should be unisex.

But those who are argue that bathrooms should be divided by gender argue for one or more of the following:

1. Trans men are uncomfortable using the women’s bathroom and trans women are uncomfortable using the men’s bathroom
2. Trans men face greater risk of abuse using the women’s bathroom and trans women face greater risk of abuse using the men’s bathroom
3. Cis men do not face greater risk of abuse when trans men use the men’s bathroom and cis women do not face greater risk of abuse when trans women use the women’s bathroom.

What is the relationship between sex and gender? — Harry Hindu

Gender roles and identities are almost always determined by sex.

If we're talking about making changes to bathrooms to accommodate certain beings, then the same can be done for animals by creating entrances that enable animals to enter the public restroom more easily. — Harry Hindu

Allowing trans men to use the men’s bathroom and trans women to use the women’s bathroom does not require or entail that we allow animals to use our bathrooms. You’re making the same incoherent slippery slope argument that people like Mike Johnson use against same-sex marriage. It’s absurd and not worth addressing.

Trans women are not women — Malcolm Parry

Trans women are not biological women. We all agree on that.

The disagreement stems over whether or not "women" always means "biological women". The claim being made is that there is a distinction between sex and gender, that the terms "man" and "woman" are also used to classify gender, and that people can be women in the sense of sex but men in the sense of gender.

And then the further (political) claim is that in many cases if we are to separate people according to whether they are a man or a women, it is more sensible to separate according to gender rather than sex.

The disagreement stems over whether or not "women" and "biological women" always mean the same thing. — Michael

I think eventually it becomes a basic rudimentary argument absent of any other potentially bias-inducing circumstance. I.E. Yes, I'm a human being, some human beings are born male, female, smart, incredibly strong, or yes even disabled. Just because one person (or perhaps many) were born almost frighteningly gifted (Nikola Tesla, Nietzsche, Socrates, etc.) doesn't mean you can just "identify" as what some people are for no other reason than because you feel like doing so. Can you? :chin: It's a fair question. Nothing to do with biases or scientific knowledge at all, just as a general concept.

Just because one person (or perhaps many) were born almost frighteningly gifted (Nikola Tesla, Nietzsche, Socrates, etc.) doesn't mean you can just "identify" as what some people are for no other reason than because you feel like doing so. Can you? — Outlander

Trans men aren’t identifying as someone with XY chromosomes or as someone who was born with a penis.

When they say “I am a man” they are not saying anything about their biology.