That words can mean more than one thing and that the English word “man” doesn’t just mean “a biological male” — Michael

Words can mean more than one thing but what man is female?

A simple list would be sufficient.

Words can mean more than one thing but what man is female? — Malcolm Parry

Yes, words can mean more than one thing. So when you ask "what man is female?" what do you mean by the words "man" and "female"? Do you mean "what biological man is biologically female"? Because the answer to that question is "none", and everyone will agree.

But when someone else says "transgender men are men" they are not saying "transgender men are biologically male" because they mean something else by the word "men".

Your apparent inability to understand this is precisely why you are getting nowhere.

Well, for example, I typed "Is a transgender man a man?" into Google and got the result:

"Yes, a transgender man is considered a man. The term "transgender man" refers to an individual who was assigned female at birth but identifies as a man. — Baden

Their gender identity is male, and they live as a man. — Baden

."

She isn't considered a man in UK law. The person is a female trangender man" not a man. They weren't assigned at birth, they are female. No one assigned the sex. It just is.

Their gender identity is male, and they live as a man." — Baden

What does this even mean in 2025? What does living like a man entail?

The reason I got this result is that the dominant current discourse of developed nations does indeed go against biological reality. — Baden

It is utter nonsense and UK law agrees.

Search engines and dictionaries are usually pretty good indicators of social reality though. Law is another important institution and perhaps @Michael being from the UK is a better person to engage you on that specific point.

(I only interjected really to make the point that the important difference seems to be one of cultural values not what social reality as defined by social institutions is currently telling us.)

Michael being from the UK is a better person to engage you on that specific point. — Baden

I addressed that issue earlier, maybe to someone else.

The specific court case was regarding the Equality Act 2010, and in particular this section:

Sex
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;

(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

The court ruled that for the purposes of this section of this Act, the words "sex", "man", and "woman" are referring to biology, not gender. The reasoning being that there's a separate section addressing gender, and so it would be redundant for this section to also be referring to gender.

Some people, like Malcolm Parry, clearly misunderstood both what laws are and how courts work. As if this ruling has any bearing on anything else.

Thank you for clarifying.

Yes, words can mean more than one thing. So when you ask "what man is female?" what do you mean by the words "man" and "female"? Do you mean "what biological man is biologically female"? Because the answer to that question is "none", and everyone will agree.

But when someone else says "transgender men are men" they are not saying "transgender men are biologically male" because they mean something else by the word "men".

Your apparent inability to understand this is precisely why you are getting nowhere. — Michael

So, if I go with this definition of men and women.

How does a biological male live like a woman in 2025?

What characteristics mark a male living as a woman?

How does a biological female live like a man in 2025?

What characteristics mark a female living as a man?

Apart from pronouns, infiltrating women's sport and toilets, what is now deemed as living as a woman/man?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role

Someone people, like Malcolm Parry, clearly misunderstood both what laws are and how courts work. — Michael

I didn't. I couldn't care less about anyone's identity apart from when it bumps up against women's rights to fair sport and exclusive places.

The only issue I have is why people insist men have a right to access women's exclusive places. What people think and how they act, I care not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role — Michael

Wiki again.

What does it practically mean? People can wear what they like, have sex with who they like, have any job they like, enjoy any pastime they like.

What does living like a woman mean? I know many woman who would be affronted if they were deemed men because they eschewed gender roles.

The only issue I have is why people insist men have a right to access women's exclusive places. — Malcolm Parry

The argument is that some of these spaces shouldn't be exclusively for those who are biologically female or for those who are biologically female; that they should be exclusively for those whose gender identity is female or for those whose gender identity is male.

So what good reasons are there for saying that Bathroom A should only be for biological males and that Bathroom B should only be for biological females?

The argument is that some of these spaces shouldn't be exclusively for those who are biologically female or for those who are biologically female; that they should be exclusively for those whose gender identity is female or whose gender identity is male.

So what good reasons are there for saying that Bathroom A should only be for biological males and that Bathroom B should only be for biological females? — Michael

The same reason that you yourself happily exclude cisgender males. All those reasons.

So what good reasons are there for saying that Bathroom A should only be for biological males and that Bathroom B should only be for biological females? — Michael

It's the law in the UK, isn't it?

It's the law in the UK, isn't it? — frank

No. There's a nightclub that I sometimes go to where all the toilets are unisex. There's no law that dictates who can use which bathrooms.

The same reason that you yourself happily exclude cisgender males. All those reasons. — Malcolm Parry

Which are?

No. There's a nightclub that I sometimes go to where all the toilets are unisex. There's no law that dictates who can use which bathrooms. — Michael

The BBC and the Guardian say biology dictates use of gender designated bathrooms in the UK.

US hospitals also have unisex toilets.

That just seems to be some minister's interpretation of the ruling. As far as I'm aware there's no law on bathroom usage at all.

The ruling is just that it is not illegal for a transgender man to be excluded from a space that is marketed as being for biological men. That's not the same as saying either a) that it is illegal for a transgender man to use a space marketed as being for biological men or b) that men's bathrooms are only for biological men.

Which are? — Michael

You tell me. You are excluding them.

That just seems to be some minister's interpretation of the ruling. As far as I'm aware there's no law on bathroom usage at all. — Michael

I don't think there ever was.

You tell me. You are excluding them. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not excluding anyone. I've said many times before that I think bathrooms should be unisex. You're the one who is saying that bathroom usage should be divided by biology. Why is that? If bathrooms are to be divided at all, why not instead by gender?

Personally, I think it's bizarre to argue that there should be separate men's and women's toilets and that any transgender man who has medically transitioned and had both top and bottom surgery should continue to use the women's toilets.

The ruling is just that it is not illegal for a transgender man to be excluded from a space that is marketed as being for biological men. That's not the same as saying either a) that it is illegal for a transgender man to use a space marketed as being for biological men or b) that men's bathrooms are only for biological men. — Michael

1. UK law does not guarantee access to bathrooms based on gender.

2. Trans people can be excluded from use of bathrooms that align with their gender (in the UK)

3. UK law is contrary to your values.

Correct?

Cisgender men, sure. — Michael

Is your quote

I'm not excluding anyone. I've said many times before that I think bathrooms should be unisex. You're the one who is saying that bathroom usage should be divided by biology. Why is that? If bathrooms are to be divided at all, why not instead by gender? — Michael

see above.

It's not quite clear. The closest thing in the ruling is:

There are other provisions whose proper functioning requires a biological interpretation of “sex”. These include separate spaces and single-sex services (including changing rooms, hostels and medical services), communal accommodation and others (paras 210-228).

Whether or not this includes bathrooms isn't obvious, given that cubicles are private and biology doesn't seem at all relevant when washing your hands in a public sink.

That was premised on the fact that we do have separate men's and women's bathrooms.

So, my position is:

1) bathrooms ought be unisex
2) but, if we have separate men's and women's bathrooms then they should be separated by gender, not sex

That was premised on the fact that we do have separate men's and women's bathrooms.

So, my position is:

1) bathrooms ought be unisex
2) but, if we have separate men's and women's bathrooms then they should be separated by gender, not sex — Michael

We do and you excluded cisgender men. On what basis?

I guess I don't understand how transgender people could be restricted wrt restaurants, shops, hospitals, or shelters, but that this wouldn't apply to bathrooms. If you go to a gym, aren't the toilets in the changing rooms?

On 25 April, the EHRC released updated guidance in line with the ruling, declaring trans women to be "biological men" and trans men to be "biological women". The guidance applied to any school, workplace, sporting body, publicly accessible service (such as restaurants, shops, hospitals, or shelters), and any association of 25 people or more. The guidance stated that while trans women and trans men should be barred from facilities matching their gender, they can also be restricted from facilities matching their sex, and that only providing mixed-sex facilities could constitute discrimination against women. It did, however, say that trans people should not be left without any facilities to use. The guidance also stated that transgender men and women should be barred from gay men's spaces and lesbian spaces respectively.[81][82][83]

In response to the ruling, the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body announced on 9 May that all toilet facilities in Holyrood designated as male or female-only would now be interpreted as meaning biological sex, and that a bank of three existing toilets in the public area of the building would be designated as a gender-neutral facility.[96] — wikipedia

But if you look at that article, this originally came up because women were guaranteed places on "public boards" (which sounds like what Americans call local councils?) The UK ruling says this does not apply to transgender women. So it would be unreasonable for you to say that the UK, in general, focuses on gender to the exclusion of biology. It does not.

We do and you excluded cisgender men. On what basis? — Malcolm Parry

On the basis that we have separate men’s and women’s bathrooms. If cis and trans men are allowed to use the women’s bathrooms and cis and trans women are allowed to use the women’s bathrooms then we don’t actually have separate men’s and women’s bathrooms. We have unisex bathrooms.

On the basis that we have separate men’s and women’s bathrooms. If cis and trans men are allowed to use the women’s bathrooms and cis and trans women are allowed to use the women’s bathrooms then we don’t actually have separate men’s and women’s bathrooms. — Michael

But why would you exclude them? What reasons would you give?

You're not making any sense.

I don't think anyone should be excluded from any bathrooms. I think bathrooms should be unisex.

But, if we do have bathrooms that we name "men's bathrooms" and bathrooms that we name "women's bathrooms", and if only certain types of people are allowed to use the bathrooms named "men's bathrooms" and only certain types of people are allowed to use the bathrooms named "women's bathrooms", it makes more sense for the division to be based on gender rather than sex.