But, if we do have bathrooms that we name "men's bathrooms" and bathrooms that we name "women's bathrooms", and if only certain types of people are allowed to use the bathrooms named "men's bathrooms" and only certain types of people are allowed to use the bathrooms names "women's bathrooms", it's makes more sense for the division to be based on gender rather than sex. — Michael

So you would immediately take the male and female signs down and anyone can use them?

So you would immediately take the male and female signs down and anyone can use them? — Malcolm Parry

Yes, much like a nightclub I used to frequent.

Yes, much like a nightclub I used to frequent. — Michael

Changing rooms?

So it would be unreasonable for you to say that the UK, in general, focuses on gender to the exclusion of biology. It does not. — frank

I didn’t say that.

I said that I don’t know of any UK law that dictates which bathrooms people can use.

The recent UK Supreme Court ruling is only that the words “sex”, “man”, and “woman” as used in section 11 of the Equality Act 2010 are referring to biological sex, biological men, and biological women. The implications of that ruling are not entirely clear, and the interim guidance issued by the EHRC that you referenced is just that - interim guidance - and not statute.

Changing rooms? — Malcolm Parry

If there's full frontal public nudity then I don't think it matters whether your genitals are natural or artificial, and so a trans man with a penis should use the men's changing room and a trans woman with breasts and a vagina should use the women's changing room.

I didn’t say that.

I said that I don’t know of any UK law that dictates which bathrooms people can use.

The recent UK Supreme Court ruling is only that the words “sex”, “man”, and “woman” as used in section 11 of the Equality Act 2010 are referring to biological sex, biological men, and biological women. The implications of that ruling are not entirely clear, and the interim guidance issued by the EHRC that you referenced is just that - interim guidance - and not statute. — Michael

Right. I get the feeling you don't really want to face the consequences of this ruling.

If there's full frontal public nudity then I don't think it matters whether your genitals are natural or artificial, and so a trans man with a penis should use the men's changing room and a trans woman with breasts and a vagina should use the women's changing room. — Michael

So you would exclude most trans women from changing rooms where there is nudity?

It's a start, I suppose.

So you would exclude most trans women from changing rooms where there is nudity?

It's a start, I suppose. — Malcolm Parry

And you would include some trans women (i.e. those who have had bottom surgery) and exclude some trans men (i.e. those who have had bottom surgery) from women's changing rooms where this is nudity?

I don’t think bathrooms should be divided by gender. I think bathrooms should be unisex.

But those who are argue that bathrooms should be divided by gender argue for one or more of the following:

1. Trans men are uncomfortable using the women’s bathroom and trans women are uncomfortable using the men’s bathroom
2. Trans men face greater risk of abuse using the women’s bathroom and trans women face greater risk of abuse using the men’s bathroom
3. Cis men do not face greater risk of abuse when trans men use the men’s bathroom and cis women do not face greater risk of abuse when trans women use the women’s bathroom. — Michael

And you don't see the problem with the first thing you said and the bullet points you showed? If bathrooms are unisex then "cis-people" can use any bathrooms they want as well as any gender which would place trans-people in the same spaces with the same people that you claim they would be in danger.

Besides, the evidence does not show that trans-people are more at risk from using the bathroom they prefer. You even said the statistics doesn't show that trans-people were attacked more in bathrooms than in other places, so how can you say that they are more in danger in using a particular bathroom, especially when men can use the women's bathroom if they are unisex?

The disagreement stems over whether or not "women" always means "biological women". The claim being made is that there is a distinction between sex and gender, that the terms "man" and "woman" are also used to classify gender, and that people can be women in the sense of sex but men in the sense of gender. — Michael

The way a trans-person feels is not a man or a woman. What does it feel like to be a man or a woman? We all have feelings. Which ones are the woman and man feelings? It appears you are conflating certain feelings that have nothing to do with sex with sex, which would be sexist.

When they say “I am a man” they are not saying anything about their biology. — Michael

Then what are they actually saying?

If there's full frontal public nudity then I don't think it matters whether your genitals are natural or artificial, and so a trans man with a penis should use the men's changing room and a trans woman with breasts and a vagina should use the women's changing room. — Michael

But wait, I thought trans-people aren't talking about their biology. :roll: contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. It's contradictions all the way down.

If bathrooms are unisex then "cis-people" can use any bathrooms they want as well as any gender which would place trans-people in the same spaces with the same people that you claim they would be in danger. — Harry Hindu

Most of the abuse they receive is “Get out! You’re not allowed to use this bathroom you pervert!” (even though they’re not perverts and are allowed to use that bathroom), so unisex bathrooms would solve the problem entirely.

Then what are they actually saying? — Harry Hindu

That their gender is male.

What does it feel like to be a man or a woman? We all have feelings. Which ones are the woman and man feelings? It appears you are conflating certain feelings that have nothing to do with sex with sex, which would be sexist. — Harry Hindu

These are four different things:

1. Male sex
2. Male gender
3. Female sex
4. Female gender

Most people who have (1) also have (2), and is the reason that it’s called the “male” gender, and most people who have (3) also have (4), and is the reason that it’s called the “female” gender.

But some people have (1) and (4) and some people have (2) and (3).

But wait, I thought trans-people aren't talking about their biology. :roll: contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. It's contradictions all the way down. — Harry Hindu

What contradiction?

Is a trans man with a penis biologically male or biologically female?

And you would include some trans women (i.e. those who have had bottom surgery) and exclude some trans men (i.e. those who have had bottom surgery) from women's changing rooms where this is nudity? — Michael

So you think a penis or lack of penis is important criteria in changing rooms? Is that correct?

I would prefer women to decide and if they were all happy to include everyone, so be it. But they aren’t and I’m aligned with women who want women’s spaces exclusively for women.

So you think a penis or lack of penis is important criteria in changing rooms? Is that correct?

I would prefer women to decide and if they were all happy to include everyone, so be it. But they aren’t and I’m aligned with women who want women’s spaces exclusively for women. — Malcolm Parry

How is a cisgender woman to know if the person naked next to them is a trans man with an artificial penis and not a cisgender man with a natural penis?

How is a cisgender woman to know if the person naked next to them is a cisgender woman with a natural vagina and not a transgender woman with an artificial vagina?

(I only interjected really to make the point that the important difference seems to be one of cultural values not what social reality as defined by social institutions is currently telling us.) — Baden

What about women's rights? Nobody even wants to mention the issue that brought on the recent UK ruling. Aren't women's rights enough of a concern to even talk about it?

How is a cisgender woman to know if the person naked next to them is a trans man with an artificial penis and not a cisgender man with a natural penis?

How is a cisgender woman to know if the person naked next to them is a cisgender woman with a natural vagina and not a transgender woman with an artificial vagina — Michael

It's fairly obvious in most cases.

Even if that were true, it’s not always obvious.

Do you think it’s acceptable for a trans man with a penis, and who is indistinguishable from the typical cisgender man, to get naked in the women’s changing rooms?

Do you think it’s acceptable for a trans woman with a vagina, and who is indistinguishable from the typical cisgender woman, to get naked in the men’s changing rooms?

The reasonable answer to both questions is “no”. The trans man with a penis should use the men’s changing rooms and the trans woman with a vagina should use the women’s changing rooms.

What about women's rights? Nobody even wants to mention the issue that brought on the recent UK ruling. — frank

Everyone mentions that. In fact, “women’s rights” is usually the very thing that is used to argue against “trans rights”.

Aren't women's rights enough of a concern to even talk about it? — frank

Everyone’s rights matter. Men’s, women’s, cis, trans, black, white, straight, gay.

But when it comes to something like bathrooms, it’s hard to see how person A using a bathroom affects person B’s rights. One person using a private cubicle to take a piss has no impact on anyone else.

What about women's rights? Nobody even wants to mention the issue that brought on the recent UK ruling. Aren't women's rights enough of a concern to even talk about it? — frank

I think it's just old fashioned misogyny.

I think it's just old fashioned misogyny. — Malcolm Parry

I honestly don't get it.

But when it comes to something like bathrooms, it’s hard to see how person A using a bathroom affects person B’s rights. One person using a private cubicle to take a piss has no impact on anyone else. — Michael

The ruling was about seats on public boards. Should seats that were guaranteed to women be given to trans women? The women in Scotland said no. Why do you think they felt that way?

Most of the abuse they receive is “Get out! You’re not allowed to use this bathroom you pervert!” (even though they’re not perverts and are allowed to use that bathroom), so unisex bathrooms would solve the problem entirely. — Michael

Yet I've seen women go to the mens bathroom because the line to the women's bathroom was to long and men go into the womans bathroom to assist their elderly mother and no one said a thing.

Women are uncomfortable with men in their bathroom and the threat they face is rape compared to someone calling them a name? Seriously?

And I think you would receive some pushback from trans on unisex bathrooms because they see using a man or woman's bathroom as a means of affirming their gender.

Then what are they actually saying?
— Harry Hindu

That their gender is male. — Michael

Male is a sex.

These are four different things:

1. Male sex
2. Male gender
3. Female sex
4. Female gender — Michael

This doesn't answer my question, and so far you've only provided circular answers. When you say you are a male or female, what are you referring to? What properties make one a male or female? How do we know we aren't talking past each other when using these terms?

And why would you be co-opting terms originally used to refer to sex if gender and sex and seperate? Why wouldn't gender be related to the type of job you have, or your religion? Why sex, if they are distinct?

The ruling was about seats on public boards. Should seats that were guaranteed to women be given to trans women? The women in Scotland said no. — frank

That's not how the law works.

I'll quote from the ruling:

1. The Scottish Parliament passed the 2018 Act to provide for positive action measures to be taken in relation to the appointment of women to non-executive posts on boards of certain Scottish public authorities. The 2018 Act sets out a gender representation objective for a public board which is that “it has 50% of non-executive members who are women”.

2. The act the provides a definition of "woman" that includes "a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010)".

3. It was challenged and affirmed that "the definition of 'woman' in section 2 of the 2018 Act was outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament".

Which is just to say that the Scottish Parliament does not have the authority to define the legal term "woman". Only the UK Parliament has the authority to define the legal term "woman", and the meaning of this term is established by section 11 of the Equality Act 2010, and refers only to biological women.

do you think they felt that way? — frank

I don't know, I'm not a mind reader.

do you think they felt that way?
— frank

I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. — Michael

That's a despicable thing to say.

Male is a sex. — Harry Hindu

And a gender. Words can have more than one meaning.

Women are uncomfortable with men in their bathroom and the threat they face is rape — Harry Hindu

I've already addressed this. Trans-inclusive bathroom policies do not put cisgender women at a greater risk of rape. Trans women are not just perverts and rapists pretending to be women so that they can more easily sexually assault biological women.

And why would you be co-opting terms originally used to refer to sex if gender and sex and seperate? — Harry Hindu

It's not co-opting terms. Transgender (and third gender) people have existed and have been talked about for thousands of years.

I've already addressed this. Trans-inclusive bathroom policies do not put cisgender women at a greater risk of rape. Trans women are not just perverts and rapists pretending to be women so that they can more easily sexually assault biological women. — Michael

I'm talking about the actual perverts, whether they be trans or not, entering women's bathrooms.

It's not co-opting terms. Transgender (and third gender) people have existed and have been talked about for thousands of years. — Michael

You're still avoiding the question as to what anyone means when using these terms. Just because something has been done for thousands of years doesn't mean it has any basis in reality.

What about women's rights? Nobody even wants to mention the issue that brought on the recent UK ruling. Aren't women's rights enough of a concern to even talk about it? — frank

Part of what constitutes values are balances of rights and these are intertwined with socially determined definitions. I know cis-women, for example, who would virulently object to excluding trans women from womanhood and consider it a (trans)woman's right to use the woman's bathroom as much as a woman's. And even if we accept your premise and speak of biological women's rights in opposition to trans-women's rights, we still identify a conflict of rights in the overall sphere of human rights between some* biological women who object to certain things---e.g. trans women using their bathrooms---and trans women. So, I think we are indirectly speaking about rights just by discussing who is affected in what way and so on.

*This is important. In Ireland, as in Thailand, people are free to use bathrooms in accordance with their gender identity. And women in those countries don't generally consider that an impingement of their rights. We are back to culture. This is a very contentious issue in the U.S. and in perhaps some other countries, but it can only become a rights issue in a cultural context where biological women decide trans women impinge on their rights by doing certain things or being in certain places they consider exclusive to them.

Personally, like most Irish and Thai people, I see no problem with bathrooms being used according to gender identity and there is no significant problem that I am aware of socially that is specific to biological women's attitudes either, so in those cultural contexts, the issue just doesn't really arise. When it comes to sports and gender-affirming care though, that needs a lot of careful working out based on scientific evidence etc. I don't think there are simple answers and I don't have a position because I haven't researched it enough.

I'm talking about the actual perverts, whether they be trans or not, entering women's bathrooms. — Harry Hindu

So trans women ought not be allowed to use women's bathrooms because perverts exist? That's terrible reasoning.

And, again, the studies show that trans-inclusive bathroom policies do not put cisgender women at a greater risk of sexual assault and rape. Someone who's willing to rape someone is also willing to walk into a bathroom that they're not supposed to.

You're still avoiding the question as to what anyone means when using these terms. Just because something has been done for thousands of years doesn't mean it has any basis in reality. — Harry Hindu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology

where in these wiki links does it explain what one means when they claim to be a woman or man? What properties are we referring to and how do we know that being a man for me is the same for someone else? What prevents us from talking past each other when using these terms?

where in these wiki links does it explain what one means when they claim to be a woman or man? — Harry Hindu

Start on line 1, finish on whatever line is last.

What properties are we referring to — Harry Hindu

Essentialism is a dead-end philosophy. Whether we're discussing biology or psychology, there is no unambiguous set of necessary and sufficient conditions. You might as well ask "what is a game?"

If you don't understand gender then fine. You don't need to. You just need to accept that trained psychologists and sociologists understand that they exist, understand what they are, and understand that transgender people ought be respected for who they are – not as merely biological machines but as conscious individuals with all the mental faculties and fuzzy categories that this entails.