Okay, agreed. So we go from simple to complex? — Brett
By "you" above I meant general "you" not you particularly or you alone as a person. — god must be atheist
It is sort of absurd, though, to think that a conversation should cease because you disagree. — Brett
My logic and my arguments irrefutably show that YOU ought not to agree as well that we go from simple to complex, if you follow logic and reason. — god must be atheist
Humans don’t need to create something more complex than themselves to demonstrate that simplicity evolves into complexity. Humans themselves have evolved into more complex organisms, and continue to evolve, particularly in relation to their capacity for more complex mental structures. — Possibility
f this idea that simplicity evolves into complexity is true then what explains the quite obvious fact that humans when engaged in creative acts can never produce something more complex than humans themselves? All our inventions no matter how advanced are but cheap imitations of nature. — TheMadFool
None of this disputes that society is made up of people...does it? So in a part of society, there is consciousness, that makes that part of society more complicated than all of society? That makes zero logical sense. I think I get your point, but I hope you are seeing that it is the various potential uses of the words "simple" and "complex" that are the source of the problem.
And until we understand it better I will not call consciousness complicated. What if consciousness is simply the touch of god, and nothing else? I get you are trying to make this discussion more scientific than that, but I have explained my hesitation to label things as simple or complex outside of context, and I don't have enough context to label consciousness. Is a dog's consciousness simpler or more complex than a human's? How so?
I see this thread suddenly got busy, so no need to get back to me if you have more exciting posts to respond to :smile: — ZhouBoTong
But, natural selection is the brilliant child of evolution? — Brett
Much like 5 cm is longer than 3 cm, or 39 years is longer than 21 days, or speed of light is faster than 4 Km/h, you have to have a measure of complexity if you want to say with any certainty, "a human is more complex than a hydroelectric, damn."
Do you have such a measurement device and unit of complexity by which to establish the degree of complexity?
If yes, what is it?
If not, then you can't possibly argue scientifically that one thing is more complex than the other. — god must be atheist
From what I've seen of your posts you tend to lean towards relativism. Would that be fair? — Brett
Why is this so? In what way is society more complex than humans? — Brett
Is there any form of consciousness that you would be prepared to accept as less complex than a human’s? — Brett
You speak of SC taking different forms based on context but the fact is we use SC with the same meaning in all and any context otherwise there would be a different word for each context. If you agree it's this universally applicable meaning of SC that I'm trying to zero in on. — TheMadFool
I've inadvertently quantified SC by using the the number of constituents and interactions at play in an object to get a sense of how simple or complex it is. I accept that this is probably just half the story or even that this is utter nonsense. — TheMadFool
If you think I'm wrong or partially correct, kindly be explicit of what needs modification or, if you think my theory is moonshine, give me reasons why. — TheMadFool
1 Understand the meaning of simplicity and complexity — TheMadFool
2. Understand whether the accepted wisdom that complexity proceeds from simplicity makes sense or not — TheMadFool
Is there any form of consciousness that you would be prepared to accept as less complex than a human’s?
— Brett
I am not convinced that I understand consciousness (no, actually I am rather sure that I do not, haha)...does science think it understands it at this point (I really am not sure of the current consensus)?
How then, would I begin to rank them according to simplicity/complexity? — ZhouBoTong
I don’t see it that way. I may have some false starts at trying to explain how I see this, so bear with me. But in my view, natural selection is not so much the child of evolution as its nemesis. — Possibility
I think that "simple" and "complex" are relative concepts, like "big" and "small". So I can't see how they could take on a universal meaning...? — ZhouBoTong
I meant the brilliance of natural selection resulted in us. Some may not be impressed with the result, but that’s just indulgence of the fortunate. The fact that you can contemplate the universe in the way you do suggests some measure of success. It’s possible natural selection is coming to an end, who knows? But that’s the force behind us being here now. You view it as a negative force that restricts possibilities (if I understand you correctly). Maybe it’s possible we’ve reached that point in time where natural selection no longer has the control it once had, that we are no longer caught up in it. But if natural selection is about survival then for us it has done its job brilliantly. — Brett
But in my view, natural selection is not so much the child of evolution as its nemesis. — Possibility
I think that "simple" and "complex" are relative concepts, like "big" and "small". So I can't see how they could take on a universal meaning...? — ZhouBoTong
the concept of weight — TheMadFool
it’s not natural selection, but the creative impetus, that displays its brilliance in us — Possibility
I could agree with you there. But then life would be not so much the evolution of dead matter but its nemesis. — ovdtogt
Well, I don’t see life as the evolution of dead matter, considering it wasn’t alive. But I’m not sure how you figure that life is the nemesis of dead matter from what I’ve said. — Possibility
Brute fact: living things die, dead things do not come alive. — Metaphysician Undercover
And? — ovdtogt
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