• Darkneos
    1k
    Objectively 'sex' is masturbation by means of another body; beyond that we interpret the process of opening-closing this desiring circuit with any number of fantasies (i.e. projections), especially those which subjectively intensify (someone's) self-pleasuring experience.

    A comment in the other thread kinda got me thinking about sex and relationships broadly. I know it's an old chestnut about whether any act is truly selfless/altruistic. Like even if you want to do something for the other person or make them feel good is that just to sate your own pleasure in the end even if both of you make out better for it?

    Or in terms of a relationship generally, I mean we are happy to see the person and like being around them right? And I know that people like to do things for other people they care about, but is that because it's out of something like love or is it some selfish motivation to not see the person you like suffer because it hurts you?

    I guess I've heard this before but it bugs me now to think that maybe, despite our own best intentions and wishes, that what we do isn't "pure" (by that I mean for the benefit of someone else) but rather is ultimately just rooted in selfishness. It kinda makes me wonder if folks truly love and care for each other (TBH that thought stings and hurts, it's kinda alienating).

    More than that it makes me wonder if there is such a thing as genuine connection or if we really are just all "alone" (referring to each individual person).
  • Jamal
    11k


    Please identify the author and source of that quotation so it can be read in context.
  • Copernicus
    204
    I don't think there's anything in life, ultimately, that is not an attempt to serve self interest.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.2k


    It seems to me that positions like "in the real world it's: "might makes right," "nature is red in tooth in claw," "everyone is an atomized, self-interested utility maximizer," or a New Age, "the world is love" etc. are more interpretive lenses than statements of empirical fact. They are ways of fitting empirical observations into a narrative. There are always plenty of counter examples, but these can always be read into the interpretive lens.

    There might be various justifications for such an interpretive lens, but they cannot come from an appeal to a "real" world as filtered through that same lens, or else the justification is circular. It's sort of like how everything from anonymous self-sacrifice for strangers to extreme self-harm can still be rolled into "self-interested utility maximization," but only at the risk of making such a statement a vacuous tautology.

    I think this is simply a pathological way of viewing the world, one hostile to human flourishing. Surely, it is better to be in a good marriage, based on love, than to be in a zero sum struggle for utility. That some people are able to paint everything in terms of "self-interest" is arguably just a sign of a sort of spiritual illness. This is precisely Dostoevsky's point in Crime and Punishment vis-á-vis the new social theories of his day.

    At any rate, Homo oecononimicus wasn't born from "empirical findings" but exists in liberal political-economy from its earliest days, were it was simply borrowed from Calvinism. It's an unfalsifiable grounding dogma used to make sense of observations. The irony then is that society seems to make many positive efforts to transform citizens into Homo oecononimicus.
  • Darkneos
    1k
    It's from this thread, there isn't much context it's pretty much the direct quote in all it's entirety.

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/16203/does-zizek-say-that-sex-is-a-bad-thing

    I think this is simply a pathological way of viewing the world, one hostile to human flourishing. Surely, it is better to be in a good marriage, based on love, than to be in a zero sum struggle for utility. That some people are able to paint everything in terms of "self-interest" is arguably just a sign of a sort of spiritual illness. This is precisely Dostoevsky's point in Crime and Punishment vis-á-vis the new social theories of his day.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I get that it's not a healthy view of the world, it's just more like wondering about the limitations of our ability to know and if the means such relationships and connections are more selfish than actually sharing anything.
  • T Clark
    15.4k
    Objectively 'sex' is masturbation by means of another body; beyond that we interpret the process of opening-closing this desiring circuit with any number of fantasies (i.e. projections), especially those which subjectively intensify (someone's) self-pleasuring experience.

    Somebody is doing it wrong.
  • Jamal
    11k
    It's from this thread, there isn't much context it's pretty much the direct quote in all it's entirety.Darkneos

    I don't want to know where it's from. I want you to edit the OP to properly identify the source of the quotation.
  • 180 Proof
    16.1k
    Somebody is doing it wrong.T Clark
    In a world teeming with unwed mothers and unwanted bastards, absentee fathers and neglected children, I suspect very few are doing it right (whatever that means) while the majority routinely confuses chemistry (attraction, arousal) for "connection".
  • BC
    14.1k
    what we do isn't "pure" (by that I mean for the benefit of someone else) but rather is ultimately just rooted in selfishness.Darkneos

    Even anonymous sex in the dark has meaning to the two (or more, I suppose) people sexually engaged. When one masturbates alone, it's for the benefit of the self. Masturbate with somebody else at hand, and it is no longer exclusively for the self.

    When two people who are fond of each other, or in the initial heat of new love, sex is reciprocal. One's gratification is enhanced by the others' responses, in a pleasurable spiral.

    Of course, relationships can become desiccated and chilled; ordinary nurturing acts (like preparing food) can become onerous--never mind sex which might continue as a perfunctory routine close to masturbation with nobody present.

    What humans do is never ("Never?" "no, never!" "Never?" Well, hardly ever.") pure anything. No pure good, no pure evil, no pure selfishness, no pure generosity...
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.