• Colo Millz
    70
    [H]umans exhibit a great deal of unnervingly animal behaviour. The search for the human difference – we speak, we laugh, we know that we die and we bury our dead, as opposed to the ‘dumb animals’, etc. – is a fool’s errand. Instead of thumping our chest and proclaiming ourselves just a little less than the angels, entitled to lord it over everything else (Ps. 8:5), we should instead see a graded continuum of analogous behaviours, visible both in the stages of the history of evolution and in the series of transformations from embryo to the mature adult. The human is not opposed to the animal. The human is a particular inflection of the animal, a complex twist taken by certain animals, as when Nietzsche savaged the Christian idea of sin as the product of animals intent on making themselves sick.

    Caputo, John D.. Hermeneutics: Facts and Interpretation in the Age of Information (Pelican Books) (pp. 257-258). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”

    Catholic Biblical Association (Great Britain), The Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition (New York: National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA, 1994), Ge 1:26–28.

    Can these viewpoints be reconciled, or can they even meaningfully converse?

    Hans-Georg Gadamer would say that these two viewpoints are two distinct "horizons", by which I understand him to mean that they are contexts of meaning or "traditions", that frame and delimit what we can perceive or interpret. We can never "get outside of" these horizons, we are always already situated within them, unable to get at some Kantian "thing-in-itself".

    However, If we read these two differing viewpoints together, it will result in what Gadamer calls a "fusion" of horizons. This is a process by which one horizon and another merge not by abstract reason, but by dialogical reason.

    Thus within Caputo’s "horizon" there exists a legitimate descent from the modern hubris of absolutism and domination into a more modest, creaturely hermeneutic: humans are within nature’s unfolding play, not standing outside it. If his horizon becomes "merged" with Genesis, however there also appears a consideration that we should be wary of reducing the human to "mere" animality. The human is animal, but also the being who understands, who plays, and who participates in meaning.

    From within Caputo’s horizon we learn humility: the human is revealed to be creaturely and continuous with nature. From within the horizon of the Genesis story we learn dignity: the human becomes the bearer of meaning and responsibility. Thus through a conversation, through Gadamer's dialogical reasoning and fusion of these two horizons, a new understanding of the human can emerge: a human being is not necessarily “a little less than the angels,” but neither is he merely “a clever animal” either. Rather, the human is the animal who nevertheless understands the world as gift and as language, the animal who names.

    In Gadamer's dialogical reasoning Caputo purifies theology from triumphalism and anthropocentrism, but Genesis rescues Caputo’s view from nihilism by affirming that our animality is beloved and called. Humanity is both animal and imago Dei: the creature through whom matter becomes self-aware, responsible, and capable of love. Evolution tells the story of our becoming; Genesis names the meaning of that story. Caputo shows what we are; Genesis shows what we are for.

    What is important here is not only this particular result from this particular reading, but to comprehend what, for Gadamer is distinctive about it - it is an example of what understanding is: it is neither one's present horizon, nor the "past" horizon, but a fusion of both of them. Only from the process of dialog within such a fusion can any understanding whatsoever occur. The "fusion" of horizons is human understanding. Thus "truth" is not an object waiting to be discovered, it is rather an event, a dialogical event between finite, historical beings, contexts, points of view and horizons. Neither is the goal of hermeneutics perfect or pure objectivity, but participation in the conversation of meaning that binds history together.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    113
    The fear of nihilism shall only widen the gaping emptyness inside of us...
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.3k
    Hans-Georg Gadamer would say that these two viewpoints are two distinct "horizons", by which I understand him to mean that they are contexts of meaning or "traditions", that frame and delimit what we can perceive or interpret. We can never "get outside of" these horizons, we are always already situated within them, unable to get at some Kantian "thing-in-itself".Colo Millz

    Do you think this interpretation should be considered as being universal or absolute, or is it itself subject to continuous fusions, potentially becoming unrecognizable in the process?

    In Hegelian terms, we might ask if it is absolute, or merely one of the moments of the absolute's coming into being? Or in classical terms would it be merely one form of participation in the infinite Logos, or a universal aspect of intelligibility itself?

    As to the Biblical narrative, a difficulty here is that the Bible itself is read in fairly divergent ways by some traditions. However, I don't think the text even requires such a fusion for the notion that man is continuous with nature or an animal, and certainly not that he is a "creature." Such comparisons are quite common throughout the Scriptures. The breath/spirit, ruach, breathed into man in Genesis 2 is the same as that breathed into the brutes, and just consider that not long after this God tells man:

    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3:19).

    Likewise in Wisdom 6:7

    For he which is Lord over all shall fear no man's person, neither shall he stand in awe of any man's greatness: for he hath made the small and great, and careth for all alike.

    Psalm 104 (103 in the Septuagint/hours) is another pretty good example of the continuity of man with creation. But man is also a divine image bearer, hence the notion of a "middle being" within an ontology of a "suspended middle" between nothingness and the divine fullness. This carries with it a justification for a certain sort of "anthropocentrism" and yet it's hard to see how this wouldn't carry over into any fusion unless it is simply negated. Man will be an animal, but he will remain a unique one.

    Also, the entire notion of man being "creaturely" seems to me to have theological undertones. Doesn't a creature and creation imply a creator? Certainly, Christian thinkers such as Pryzwarra make this essential to their philosophy. Whereas, on a certain view of "naturalism" man and animals are only arbitrary unities, just a "special case" as respects any other possible ensembles of particles that might be considered. Here, biology is only discrete from physics on wholly subjective and "pragmatic" grounds. But man isn't a "creature" here, he is a brute fact, and not even that, for he is an essentially arbitrary subdivision of a universal brute fact (or in some more recent ontologies, he simply a stream of computation in a universal mathematical object, but this "stream" is only arbitrarily distinct from the universal computation, a wholly subjective demarcation).
  • Ciceronianus
    3k


    Well, that's one way to insert the Bible into a philosophy forum. But I wonder at it, as the Bible warns us of philosophy's evils more than once. For example:

    "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ."
    Colossians 2:8, Bible, Standard Revised Version, Catholic Edition.
  • Colo Millz
    70
    Do you think this interpretation should be considered as being universal or absolute, or is it itself subject to continuous fusions, potentially becoming unrecognizable in the process?

    In Hegelian terms, we might ask if it is absolute, or merely one of the moments of the absolute's coming into being? Or in classical terms would it be merely one form of participation in the infinite Logos, or a universal aspect of intelligibility itself?
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    I think Gadamer would say: it's turtles (interpretations) all the way down.

    The question becomes then how does Gadamer preserve some objectivity?

    Something that occurs to me is that he might appeal to interpretations that have become "proven". Not in the sense of mathematical proof, but in the sense that if I have a sore throat I am going to consult a doctor instead of my crazy aunt. Doctors have "proven" themselves to be reliable in this area, in other words. Interpretations, in other words, are more or less reliable. This is something like Rorty's pragmatism.

    But in terms of a Hegelian "absolute", that as far as I can tell so far is nowhere in Gadamer.

    He might also say that in the fusion of horizons itself there is a kind of objectivity - the “thing itself” of the other horizon, whatever it is, the text, artwork, or phenomenon - addresses us and places a claim on us, it cannot mean just absolutely anything, we are delimited by it, just as we are delimited by our own original horizon.

    I think he would also say - our prejudices themselves (pre-judice = pre-judgments) are our claim to objectivity, but they must be tested in the fire of the fusion of horizons, in genuine dialog. They can be shared, debated, and defended.
  • Colo Millz
    70
    More significantly, however, I think he would say that the "subjective-objective" distinction itself is a Cartesian model which has now run its course.

    An "interpretation" and a "fusion" of horizons is, as Caputo puts it, neither subjective nor objective, but a tertium quid, a third thing:

    If we truly understand what an interpretation is – which is what we do in hermeneutics – we would never say ‘just a matter of interpretation’. A good interpretation is a blessed event, a wonderful thing, a tertium quid, the ‘third thing’ that shows the way out of the loggerhead that results whenever the fruitless and destructive war between absolutism and relativism breaks out.

    Caputo, John D.. Hermeneutics: Facts and Interpretation in the Age of Information (Pelican Books) (p. 14). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.
  • Colo Millz
    70
    There has always been a tension between philosophy and Christianity: "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem"?, etc.

    For Aquinas, philosophy was the handmaid of theology.

    But the final break came with the enlightenment where Christianity became just one worldview among others.

    Since I am on a hermeneutical trip at the moment next on the list is Bultmann for whom both Christianity and philosophy share a hermeneutical concern: both interpret existence and meaning.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k

    I would call it an awkward relationship. Christianity's debt to pagan philosophy is enormous, but Christian philosophy, such as it is, is necessarily a kind of special pleading. All inquiry has a pre-established end.
  • Banno
    29.1k
    Taking on the extreme, as is my want:

    Reasoning employed in service of a prior commitment doesn't count as philosophical reasoning. For Christians philosophy is just commentary. Christians enter into philosophical discussions in bad faith.

    In my understanding of Gadamer, a "fusion of horizons" is only available when the discussion proceeds in good faith; when the participants are open to the conclusion that they are wrong. Christian faith forecloses on that. A faithful Christian cannot engage in hermeneutical reasoning. Attempt to use Gadamer to blend theology and philosophy begin by misunderstanding him.

    The whole enterprise of this thread is fatally flawed.
  • Joshs
    6.5k
    In Gadamer's dialogical reasoning Caputo purifies theology from triumphalism and anthropocentrism, but Genesis rescues Caputo’s view from nihilism by affirming that our animality is beloved and called. Humanity is both animal and imago Dei: the creature through whom matter becomes self-aware, responsible, and capable of love. Evolution tells the story of our becoming; Genesis names the meaning of that story. Caputo shows what we are; Genesis shows what we are for.Colo Millz

    This is taking Gadamer in a theological direction he was careful to avoid. Rather than self-awareness as teleological purpose, the meaning of hermeneutic discourse is in the process itself.

    we should be wary of reducing the human to "mere" animality. The human is animal, but also the being who understands, who plays, and who participates in meaningColo Millz

    Those poor animals. We humans are so frantically desperate to clutch at whatever we can convince ourselves will separate us from other species (only humans as are self-aware! Only humans are rational animals! Only humans have language, use tools, have culture, engage in play behavior, feel emotion!). I suggest whatever such categorical distinctions we might come up will eventually prove unjustifiable, and we will have to live with the idea that our differences with other creatures are as much a matter of degree as of kind.
  • Jamal
    11.1k
    Reasoning employed in service of a prior commitment doesn't count as philosophical reasoning.Banno

    Good idea for a new topic?

    (Religion could be kept out of it)
  • Banno
    29.1k
    It was behind my old thread, Demarcating theology, or, what not to post to Philosophy of Religion. But you might well start a secular version...

    In so far as philosophy consists in linguistic plumbing, perhaps some presumption is required - keeping the sewage away from the drinking water.
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