• Colo Millz
    76
    [H]umans exhibit a great deal of unnervingly animal behaviour. The search for the human difference – we speak, we laugh, we know that we die and we bury our dead, as opposed to the ‘dumb animals’, etc. – is a fool’s errand. Instead of thumping our chest and proclaiming ourselves just a little less than the angels, entitled to lord it over everything else (Ps. 8:5), we should instead see a graded continuum of analogous behaviours, visible both in the stages of the history of evolution and in the series of transformations from embryo to the mature adult. The human is not opposed to the animal. The human is a particular inflection of the animal, a complex twist taken by certain animals, as when Nietzsche savaged the Christian idea of sin as the product of animals intent on making themselves sick.

    Caputo, John D.. Hermeneutics: Facts and Interpretation in the Age of Information (Pelican Books) (pp. 257-258). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”

    Catholic Biblical Association (Great Britain), The Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition (New York: National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA, 1994), Ge 1:26–28.

    Can these viewpoints be reconciled, or can they even meaningfully converse?

    Hans-Georg Gadamer would say that these two viewpoints are two distinct "horizons", by which I understand him to mean that they are contexts of meaning or "traditions", that frame and delimit what we can perceive or interpret. We can never "get outside of" these horizons, we are always already situated within them, unable to get at some Kantian "thing-in-itself".

    However, If we read these two differing viewpoints together, it will result in what Gadamer calls a "fusion" of horizons. This is a process by which one horizon and another merge not by abstract reason, but by dialogical reason.

    Thus within Caputo’s "horizon" there exists a legitimate descent from the modern hubris of absolutism and domination into a more modest, creaturely hermeneutic: humans are within nature’s unfolding play, not standing outside it. If his horizon becomes "merged" with Genesis, however there also appears a consideration that we should be wary of reducing the human to "mere" animality. The human is animal, but also the being who understands, who plays, and who participates in meaning.

    From within Caputo’s horizon we learn humility: the human is revealed to be creaturely and continuous with nature. From within the horizon of the Genesis story we learn dignity: the human becomes the bearer of meaning and responsibility. Thus through a conversation, through Gadamer's dialogical reasoning and fusion of these two horizons, a new understanding of the human can emerge: a human being is not necessarily “a little less than the angels,” but neither is he merely “a clever animal” either. Rather, the human is the animal who nevertheless understands the world as gift and as language, the animal who names.

    In Gadamer's dialogical reasoning Caputo purifies theology from triumphalism and anthropocentrism, but Genesis rescues Caputo’s view from nihilism by affirming that our animality is beloved and called. Humanity is both animal and imago Dei: the creature through whom matter becomes self-aware, responsible, and capable of love. Evolution tells the story of our becoming; Genesis names the meaning of that story. Caputo shows what we are; Genesis shows what we are for.

    What is important here is not only this particular result from this particular reading, but to comprehend what, for Gadamer is distinctive about it - it is an example of what understanding is: it is neither one's present horizon, nor the "past" horizon, but a fusion of both of them. Only from the process of dialog within such a fusion can any understanding whatsoever occur. The "fusion" of horizons is human understanding. Thus "truth" is not an object waiting to be discovered, it is rather an event, a dialogical event between finite, historical beings, contexts, points of view and horizons. Neither is the goal of hermeneutics perfect or pure objectivity, but participation in the conversation of meaning that binds history together.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    114
    The fear of nihilism shall only widen the gaping emptyness inside of us...
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.3k
    Hans-Georg Gadamer would say that these two viewpoints are two distinct "horizons", by which I understand him to mean that they are contexts of meaning or "traditions", that frame and delimit what we can perceive or interpret. We can never "get outside of" these horizons, we are always already situated within them, unable to get at some Kantian "thing-in-itself".Colo Millz

    Do you think this interpretation should be considered as being universal or absolute, or is it itself subject to continuous fusions, potentially becoming unrecognizable in the process?

    In Hegelian terms, we might ask if it is absolute, or merely one of the moments of the absolute's coming into being? Or in classical terms would it be merely one form of participation in the infinite Logos, or a universal aspect of intelligibility itself?

    As to the Biblical narrative, a difficulty here is that the Bible itself is read in fairly divergent ways by some traditions. However, I don't think the text even requires such a fusion for the notion that man is continuous with nature or an animal, and certainly not that he is a "creature." Such comparisons are quite common throughout the Scriptures. The breath/spirit, ruach, breathed into man in Genesis 2 is the same as that breathed into the brutes, and just consider that not long after this God tells man:

    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3:19).

    Likewise in Wisdom 6:7

    For he which is Lord over all shall fear no man's person, neither shall he stand in awe of any man's greatness: for he hath made the small and great, and careth for all alike.

    Psalm 104 (103 in the Septuagint/hours) is another pretty good example of the continuity of man with creation. But man is also a divine image bearer, hence the notion of a "middle being" within an ontology of a "suspended middle" between nothingness and the divine fullness. This carries with it a justification for a certain sort of "anthropocentrism" and yet it's hard to see how this wouldn't carry over into any fusion unless it is simply negated. Man will be an animal, but he will remain a unique one.

    Also, the entire notion of man being "creaturely" seems to me to have theological undertones. Doesn't a creature and creation imply a creator? Certainly, Christian thinkers such as Pryzwarra make this essential to their philosophy. Whereas, on a certain view of "naturalism" man and animals are only arbitrary unities, just a "special case" as respects any other possible ensembles of particles that might be considered. Here, biology is only discrete from physics on wholly subjective and "pragmatic" grounds. But man isn't a "creature" here, he is a brute fact, and not even that, for he is an essentially arbitrary subdivision of a universal brute fact (or in some more recent ontologies, he simply a stream of computation in a universal mathematical object, but this "stream" is only arbitrarily distinct from the universal computation, a wholly subjective demarcation).
  • Ciceronianus
    3k


    Well, that's one way to insert the Bible into a philosophy forum. But I wonder at it, as the Bible warns us of philosophy's evils more than once. For example:

    "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ."
    Colossians 2:8, Bible, Standard Revised Version, Catholic Edition.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    Do you think this interpretation should be considered as being universal or absolute, or is it itself subject to continuous fusions, potentially becoming unrecognizable in the process?

    In Hegelian terms, we might ask if it is absolute, or merely one of the moments of the absolute's coming into being? Or in classical terms would it be merely one form of participation in the infinite Logos, or a universal aspect of intelligibility itself?
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    I think Gadamer would say: it's turtles (interpretations) all the way down.

    The question becomes then how does Gadamer preserve some objectivity?

    Something that occurs to me is that he might appeal to interpretations that have become "proven". Not in the sense of mathematical proof, but in the sense that if I have a sore throat I am going to consult a doctor instead of my crazy aunt. Doctors have "proven" themselves to be reliable in this area, in other words. Interpretations, in other words, are more or less reliable. This is something like Rorty's pragmatism.

    But in terms of a Hegelian "absolute", that as far as I can tell so far is nowhere in Gadamer.

    He might also say that in the fusion of horizons itself there is a kind of objectivity - the “thing itself” of the other horizon, whatever it is, the text, artwork, or phenomenon - addresses us and places a claim on us, it cannot mean just absolutely anything, we are delimited by it, just as we are delimited by our own original horizon.

    I think he would also say - our prejudices themselves (pre-judice = pre-judgments) are our claim to objectivity, but they must be tested in the fire of the fusion of horizons, in genuine dialog. They can be shared, debated, and defended.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    More significantly, however, I think he would say that the "subjective-objective" distinction itself is a Cartesian model which has now run its course.

    An "interpretation" and a "fusion" of horizons is, as Caputo puts it, neither subjective nor objective, but a tertium quid, a third thing:

    If we truly understand what an interpretation is – which is what we do in hermeneutics – we would never say ‘just a matter of interpretation’. A good interpretation is a blessed event, a wonderful thing, a tertium quid, the ‘third thing’ that shows the way out of the loggerhead that results whenever the fruitless and destructive war between absolutism and relativism breaks out.

    Caputo, John D.. Hermeneutics: Facts and Interpretation in the Age of Information (Pelican Books) (p. 14). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    There has always been a tension between philosophy and Christianity: "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem"?, etc.

    For Aquinas, philosophy was the handmaid of theology.

    But the final break came with the enlightenment where Christianity became just one worldview among others.

    Since I am on a hermeneutical trip at the moment next on the list is Bultmann for whom both Christianity and philosophy share a hermeneutical concern: both interpret existence and meaning.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k

    I would call it an awkward relationship. Christianity's debt to pagan philosophy is enormous, but Christian philosophy, such as it is, is necessarily a kind of special pleading. All inquiry has a pre-established end.
  • Banno
    29.1k
    Taking on the extreme, as is my want:

    Reasoning employed in service of a prior commitment doesn't count as philosophical reasoning. For Christians philosophy is just commentary. Christians enter into philosophical discussions in bad faith.

    In my understanding of Gadamer, a "fusion of horizons" is only available when the discussion proceeds in good faith; when the participants are open to the conclusion that they are wrong. Christian faith forecloses on that. A faithful Christian cannot engage in hermeneutical reasoning. Attempt to use Gadamer to blend theology and philosophy begins by misunderstanding him.

    The whole enterprise of this thread is fatally flawed.
  • Joshs
    6.5k
    In Gadamer's dialogical reasoning Caputo purifies theology from triumphalism and anthropocentrism, but Genesis rescues Caputo’s view from nihilism by affirming that our animality is beloved and called. Humanity is both animal and imago Dei: the creature through whom matter becomes self-aware, responsible, and capable of love. Evolution tells the story of our becoming; Genesis names the meaning of that story. Caputo shows what we are; Genesis shows what we are for.Colo Millz

    This is taking Gadamer in a theological direction he was careful to avoid. Rather than self-awareness as teleological purpose, the meaning of hermeneutic discourse is in the process itself.

    we should be wary of reducing the human to "mere" animality. The human is animal, but also the being who understands, who plays, and who participates in meaningColo Millz

    Those poor animals. We humans are so frantically desperate to clutch at whatever we can convince ourselves will separate us from other species (only humans as are self-aware! Only humans are rational animals! Only humans have language, use tools, have culture, engage in play behavior, feel emotion!). I suggest whatever such categorical distinctions we might come up will eventually prove unjustifiable, and we will have to live with the idea that our differences with other creatures are as much a matter of degree as of kind.
  • Jamal
    11.1k
    Reasoning employed in service of a prior commitment doesn't count as philosophical reasoning.Banno

    Good idea for a new topic?

    (Religion could be kept out of it)
  • Banno
    29.1k
    It was behind my old thread, Demarcating theology, or, what not to post to Philosophy of Religion. But you might well start a secular version...

    In so far as philosophy consists in linguistic plumbing, perhaps some presumption is required - keeping the sewage away from the drinking water.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    A faithful Christian cannot engage in hermeneutical reasoning.Banno

    This is taking Gadamer in a theological direction he was careful to avoid.Joshs

    Your positions are simply incorrect in the light of the history of hermeneutics after Truth and Method. A quick Google search reveals that several authors have applied Gadamer's hermeneutics to theology, making your statements seem extraordinary.
  • Banno
    29.1k
    You've doubled down on the invulnerability of theology. That response reinforces my fear that you are dealing in bad faith.

    Show that your faith in Christianity is vulnerable, and you might gain some credibility.

    That others have misused Gadamer is no excuse.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    You have made a bald assertion perhaps you are the one who should provide some evidence.

    Particularly in light of the fact that my OP was explicitly an application of Gadamer to the horizons of both philosophy and theology. You haven't even addressed it.
  • Banno
    29.1k
    You provide the evidence:

    From within Caputo’s horizon we learn humility: the human is revealed to be creaturely and continuous with nature. From within the horizon of the Genesis story we learn dignity: the human becomes the bearer of meaning and responsibility.Colo Millz

    In this, you presume the consequence of the dialogue. My point is that your ‘fusion of horizons’ isn’t faithful to Gadamer’s method. Gadamer emphasises openness and vulnerability in dialogue; no horizon should be treated as immune or pre-determining.

    But that's how you started.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    "Presume the consequence" - you mean, reach a result? Is that verboten? Or must all fusions be endless? An endless, amorphous openness with no determinate result? It seems to me that as soon as a new understanding has appeared the fusion of horizons has become complete. The “fusion” is not a perpetual deferral of meaning (a la Derrida); it’s the event of meaning becoming actual.

    The goal was to provide an example of what "understanding" is for Gadamer. Openness and vulnerability and certainly emphasized, which is precisely why the "result" of my little dialog was a different understanding for both horizons - Neither the "dominion" of genesis nor the "clever animal" of ecology but a fusion of humility and dignity. A new result for both horizons.

    Certainly the resulting horizon remains provisional, as before, like all horizons, as long as "openness" and good faith are operative, it will always be such. But having already reached a new understanding through openness - that is is the very essence of hermeneutical experience to my understanding.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k

    It seems to me that the issue which first must be addressed is whether theology is appropriately a subject of discussion in this forum. Sadly, there have been many threads devoted to the question whether God exists (a question which I wish would never be raised). So, perhaps that question, at least, may be considered here, much to my regret.

    Christianity has a history of having recourse to philosophy in a relentless effort (which I think has been unsuccesful) to justify or at least provide something resembling a rationale for some of the bizarre beliefs and questions which arise due to its convoluted, confusing narrative--three persons-in-one deity, which includes God's Son, who is nonetheless begotten not made, one in being with the Father, born of a virgin, both God and man, who was cruelly killed for our salvation, descended into Hell, then resurrected, etc. So I think Christian theology is peculiarly suspect as philosophy. So much to explain!

    But maybe some issues are allowed. I don't know.
  • Colo Millz
    76


    Then allow me to short circuit that discussion - if everyone prefers, the portion of "Genesis" in my little initial dialog can be substituted as follows:

    1. There exists a transcendent source of rational order that intentionally brings forth the human being.

    2. Humanity is constituted according to a paradigmatic form - a likeness or image that grounds its dignity and capacity for relation to that transcendent source.

    3. The human essence is dual and relational, expressed in the differentiation of male and female.

    4. Human beings possess a distinctive authority within the natural order, described as dominion or stewardship over other living beings.

    5. This authority is derivative and participatory, not autonomous - it flows from humanity’s being “in the image” of the aforementioned transcendent source of rational order.

    6. Human vocation includes creative fruitfulness, the extension of life and order within the world.

    7. To “subdue” the earth is not merely to exploit it, but to bring it into a sphere of meaningful order, realizing potential latent in creation.

    8. Ethical responsibility follows from ontological status.

    9. Human flourishing and the flourishing of the world are interdependent, since both arise from the same paradigm that grounds existence itself.


    There, now we have no nasty "sewage" from the Bible, no "theological" discussion we have merely a series of propositions. Is everybody happy?
  • Banno
    29.1k
    You began this discussion by giving your conclusion.

    There's the bad faith that continues in your new posts. There's the misapplication of Gadamer. Entering into such a discussion by presuming the human dignity of Genesis is bad faith.

    I think you and I are done here. That bit about not providing you with the walls to your self-serving echo chamber.
  • Banno
    29.1k
    2. Humanity is constituted according to a paradigmatic form - a likeness or image that grounds its dignity and capacity for relation to that transcendent source.Colo Millz

    Here again is that presumptive pseudo-Aristotelianism, rife in the forums at present. It smuggles in a theological conclusion under the guise of metaphysics.
  • Wayfarer
    25.5k
    In Gadamer's dialogical reasoning Caputo purifies theology from triumphalism and anthropocentrism, but Genesis rescues Caputo’s view from nihilism by affirming that our animality is beloved and called. Humanity is both animal and imago Dei: the creature through whom matter becomes self-aware, responsible, and capable of love. Evolution tells the story of our becoming; Genesis names the meaning of that story. Caputo shows what we are; Genesis shows what we are for.Colo Millz

    Splendid OP, and encapsulates many themes I have contemplated for years.

    I'm very critical of neo-darwinian, reductive humanism - the ubiquitous notion that evolutionary biology 'proves' or 'shows' that we are 'just animals'. i think it sets the bar too low.

    I also think there's a hidden premise in this very popular idea, which is that, for secular culture, nature is a symbol of purity and 'the unspoiled'. Hence reverence for the environment and first nations peoples - all very worthy ideals, I hasten to add, and nothing whatever the matter with them. But the implication is that to recognise a fundamental distinction between humans and animals is a symptom of alientation or separateness from nature, 'human arrogance', exemplified in the environmental and cultural destruction wrought by industrial culture.

    But this also ignores the existential gulf that undeniably exists between h.sapiens and other species. it is really an updated take on Rousseau. But the distinction or existential separation is real - by virtue of language, meaning-making, science, and spirituality (which naturalism tends to routinely deprecate).

    Reveal
    In traditional theology and metaphysics, the natural was largely conceived as the evil, and the spiritual or supernatural as the good. In popular Darwinism, the good is the well-adapted, and the value of that to which the organism adapts itself is unquestioned or is measured only in terms of further adaptation. However, being well adapted to one’s surroundings is tantamount to being capable of coping successfully with them, of mastering the forces that beset one. Thus the theoretical denial of the spirit’s antagonism to nature–even as implied in the doctrine of interrelation between the various forms of organic life, including man–frequently amounts in practice to subscribing to the principle of man’s continuous and thoroughgoing domination of nature. Regarding reason as a natural organ does not divest it of the trend to domination or invest it with greater potentialities for reconciliation. On the contrary, the abdication of the spirit in popular Darwinism entails the rejection of any elements of the mind that transcend the function of adaptation and consequently are not instruments of self-preservation. Reason disavows its own primacy and professes to be a mere servant of natural selection. On the surface, this new empirical reason seems more humble toward nature than the reason of the metaphysical tradition. Actually, however, it is arrogant, practical mind riding roughshod over the ‘useless spiritual,’ and dismissing any view of nature in which the latter is taken to be more than a stimulus to human activity. The effects of this view are not confined to modern philosophy. — Max Horkheimer, The Eclipse of Reason


    However the Biblical Genesis narrative is not the only symbolic framework within which to express the spiritual dimension of human existence. For example, consider Buddhist lore, from a very different cultural framework. Within Buddhism, there are six realms of existence, of which the human is one. But the human realm is unique in that it is only in human form that Nirvāṇa can be attained, as only humans have the intelligence to hear and respond to the teaching (ref). That, of course, ought not to be taken as gospel - but both the Genesis narrative, and the Buddhist mythology, convey something which I think is essential to the human condition, that is, the possibility of reality beyond it.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k

    For my part, I think that until such time as it's established we can know anything beyond the universe of which we're a part, we shouldn't claim to know of the existence or characteristics of any being or souce outside of it.

    Perhaps that's a theological statement, though.
  • Colo Millz
    76


    I was happy to read your quote from Horkheimer because it turns out I find that I can actually understand it. :snicker:

    I have tried to read Adorno before, with not a lot of luck.

    But that particular quote (and what little I know about Eclipse of Reason) nicely encapsulates what the "result" of the little "fusion of horizons" dialog in the OP was meant to accomplish:

    The revision of "reason" from a system of "instrumental" domination which asks merely what is and is not useful (that sinister word), to more of a humble, "dialogical" reason, which is nevertheless still able to ask what is right, and good, and which preserves something of what is unique about human beings.
  • Joshs
    6.5k


    A quick Google search reveals that several authors have applied Gadamer's hermeneutics to theology, making your statements seem extraordinaryColo Millz

    What can i say, I’m an extraordinary person. Any author can take a philosophical position in a theological direction. Gadamer didn’t object to theologians making use of hermeneutical interpretation as long they didnt attempt to treat it as a method grounded in a theological foundation. The fusion of horizons he described can only include such foundational theological tropes as revelation and grace if these are stripped of their authoritative god’s eye grounding and treated instead as horizons located entirely within the contingency of historically mediated, linguistically conditioned, open-ended discursive practices.
  • Joshs
    6.5k


    …three persons-in-one deity, which includes God's Son, who is nonetheless begotten not made, one in being with the Father, born of a virgin, both God and man, who was cruelly killed for our salvation, descended into Hell, then resurrected, etc.Ciceronianus

    I think I saw that movie. It was part of Halloween month.
  • Wayfarer
    25.5k
    Quite. I'm not that well-read in either Adorno or Horkheimer, and not all of his 'Eclipse of Reason' has aged well, but the basic drift is something I thoroughly agree with. It is obviously related to his and Adorno's 'instrumentalisation of reason' which is developed at length in Dialectics of the Enlightenment. Which is ironic, in a way, because that is one of the key texts of the 'cultural Marxism' which conservatives like to rail against, whereas I would have thought it an idea that traditional conservatism (not the warped maga version) could get behind.
  • Colo Millz
    76
    I would have thought it an idea that traditional conservatism (not the warped maga version) could get behindWayfarer
    :up:

    For example, MacIntyre's critique of Enlightenment reason is quite different it seems (and he has a different solution), but it is nevertheless still also a critique of the same phenomenon.
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