Banno
The past event E was contingent if the causal factors (C) that produced E had the potential (at the time) to produce E or ~E. IOW, both E and ~E were possible. — Relativist
Richard B
The composition may change in terms of NaCl, etc., but if you do not have H2O then you do not have water. Your response? — NotAristotle
Relativist
For those reading along, the standard definition of contingency is roughly just that an event is contingent if it is true in some but not all possible worlds.
This has the great advantage of not involving any notion of causality or temporality. — Banno
Banno
it ignores the controversies... — Relativist
is pretty much right. Contingency is modal, potential is causal, such that if we mix the two, then we ought keep close track of which is which.You're conflating possibility with potential. There is no potential for a different past, but we can consider whether a past event was necessary or contingent. — Relativist
Relativist
I wasn't "defining" possibility, I was discussing the ontology of possibilty - pertinent to the discussion ofUnfortunately your definition of contingency mixes causality and and modality. If it were a definition of determinacy, it would work. — Banno
RussellA
Sure, but in the situation we're talking about every possible world is actual, and there's no definition as to what actual means. So "actual" is meaningless. — Metaphysician Undercover
Then there is the source of my empirical experience, which is not one of the possible worlds (as these are what are in the model), therefore not actual. So I concluded that it is an illusion. — Metaphysician Undercover
No, the actual world we live in is not actual, the possible worlds are actual. — Metaphysician Undercover
RussellA
The reasoning is inescapably circular! — Relativist
Kripke's theory of naming, presented in his book "Naming and Necessity," argues against the descriptivist theory of names, proposing instead that names refer to objects through a causal chain originating from an initial act of naming. This means that a name's reference is fixed by its original use, rather than by a set of descriptive properties associated with the name.
Metaphysician Undercover
You're conflating possibility with potential. — Relativist
The past event E was contingent if the causal factors (C) that produced E had the potential (at the time) to produce E or ~E. IOW, both E and ~E were possible. — Relativist
After the event, it will remain a historical fact that E was contingent (E and ~E were possible). — Relativist
This has the great advantage of not involving any notion of causality or temporality. — Banno
One of the things happening in this side conversation is that modality, temporality and causality are being mixed together with little clear idea of how they interact - that is, without a suitable logic. — Banno
One of the great advantages of possible world semantics is that it can be used to provide such logics. — Banno
That is like saying because there is no definitive definition of “pain” the concept of pain becomes meaningless. — RussellA
No one has directly seen a quark, but only theorised about them. The Merriam Webster dictionary defines “illusion” as “something that deceives or misleads intellectually”. “Illusion” would be the wrong word to describe our understanding of quarks. Similarly with theorised possible worlds. — RussellA
Is it referring to i) the world as we perceive it through our senses or ii) the external world that is causing our sensations? — RussellA
Relativist
No, that's not what contingent means. Suppose necessitarianism is true. Necessitarianism is the theory that every that event that occurs (past and future) occurred necessarily. IOW there are contingent events and no objects that exists contingently.Sure, all physical things and actions can be understood as "contingent". That means their existence is dependent on causation. — Metaphysician Undercover
RussellA
You left out the other condition, "pain" must refer to everything as well. If pain refers to everything, as "actual" refers to all possible worlds, and there is no definition for "pain", then it's meaningless. — Metaphysician Undercover
The concept of "quark" misleads intellectually, by producing the illusion that something not understood is understood. — Metaphysician Undercover
Even the experience of our perceptions must be put into descriptive words before it becomes a part of the modal model. If the modal model is "the actual", then our perceptions are not. — Metaphysician Undercover
Relativist
Banno
NotAristotle
NotAristotle
Have they made some error in this case? — Richard B
Richard B
Richard B
The composition may change in terms of NaCl, etc., but if you do not have H2O then you do not have water. Your response? — NotAristotle
Richard B
Would be interested to hear what you think about it. — NotAristotle
Ludwig V
I think I understand all that. We seem (not only in this context, but in most modern discussions of logic) to have got to a situation where what logic one uses is just a function of what project one is pursuing. Logic as pragmatism. Is that grossly unfair?The take-away: the structure of possible world semantics that Kripke set up has been used to formalise a wide variety of situations by amongst other things constructing suitable accessibility relations. Since these are dependent on the core possible world semantics, it might be good practice to make sure we understand what that is before we go off talking about these applications of that logic. — Banno
It looks as if you are saying that what determines reference is simply a question of how each speaker is using the word. I can see a sense in which that is true. But then I want to know how it is that other people can "get" what I am referring to, given that they may or may not be using the word in the same way as the speaker.In other words, if my composition of H2O and NaCl is what determines what I am referring to, then yeah, that would also determine what is meant by water. On the other hand, if what I mean by water is in some sense prior to or co-relational to the thing in the world that is being picked out, then I am not so sure that we have to use the actual-world instantiation of something when we refer. — NotAristotle
It does seem obvious that the way a community refers to something cannot be determined by all possible future discoveries about that substance. We have to adapt how we refer to things as we go along - future cases are determined as they crop up. It seems to me that rigid designation sweeps away all the problems in pursuit of the timeless present.There is no need to appeal to essences in all possible worlds to understand what the name is referring to in this example (sc. "warder" is s composed of 98% H2O and 2% NaCl). — Richard B
That's exactly right. But I would say that "massaging" our meanings is how we manage things. Our critique ought to not to target the massaging, but the sad consequence that we end up with a misleading view of our world.This is the problem Kripke has with using the natural language term "water" and trying to call it identical with the scientific term "H2O". His only choice is to massage that vague term "water" into a precise term like "H2O" to fit in with his domain of logic. — 'Cartesian Linguistics' - James McGilvray
I would agree. But we need to give more of an answer to those who think it does matter. There is what may be a side-issue, but we need to be aware that just as there are many things that humans agree on, there are also many things that they disagree on. Paradoxically, human agreements may also be the frame of human disagreements.I think the real answer here is it does not matter what you say, only what we humans agree upon. — Richard B
I agree with you. Necessitarianism does seem to sweep the concept of contingency away. So we need to show why we need it. I don't have an answer.No, that's not what contingent means. Suppose necessitarianism is true. Necessitarianism is the theory that every that event that occurs (past and future) occurred necessarily. — Relativist
We have to be very careful about our terms here. As a result of reading this thread, I have become quite confused about what "actual" actually means (!) and how it relates to "exists" (and "real"). I don't see how actual world could only possible exist. It seems to mean something close to "exists" and like it, in that neither are, in Kant's sense, predicates. (Nor, come to think of it, is "real")Actual worlds may exist or possibly exist. — RussellA
I think you misunderstand Kripke's project. It is, it seems to me, to find a way of forgetting about everything that makes a problem for the project of logic. In which, perhaps, he succeeds. Then we will ask more pragmatic questions about the project.But let's forget about that." -Naming and Necessity p43
If he can't account for identity over time, then he can't account for true trans-world identity either — Relativist
I think that's far too strictly binary. Understanding is not a whole, but is (almost always) partial. No single concept can cater for all contexts, but they can be useful and helpful in some contexts. That is enough....every concept we have misleads intellectually by producing the illusion that something not understand is understood. — RussellA
RussellA
I don't see how actual world could only possible exist — Ludwig V
RussellA
So he's saying an individual is essentially tied to particular features of its origin in a way that it is not essentially tied to particular features of its subsequent history. Further, he's saying that origin is a necessary condition, not a necessary and sufficient condition. — Relativist
The reasoning is inescapably circular! It starts with the assumption an object is the same object in a (non-actual) possible world (it has a trans-world identity) and then conclude that the object must have an essence that accounts for it being the same object. — Relativist
RussellA
In standard modal logic there is exactly one actual world..........................We've a set of possible worlds, W, and we can label any one of these the actual world, w₀. — Banno
Importantly, accessibility is not causal, temporal, or epistemic unless specified. And it can be so specified. It constrains what worlds we have access to. — Banno
Ludwig V
Clearly, I'm not a indirect realist, because I don't accept that we only know the actual world as representations in the mind, because, as Berkeley pointed out, unless you can compare a representation with its original, you can't establish what, if anything, it is a representation of.For the Indirect Realist, we only know the actual world as representations in the mind, .... — RussellA
Clearly, I'm not a Direct Realist because I don't accept that we directly perceive an actual world existing independently of our representations of it....whereas for the Direct Realist, we directly perceive an actual world existing independently of our representations of it. — RussellA
The implication is that the existence of the causal chain is necessary and sufficient, presumably whether or not we know it. That's extremely hard to understand, because it suggests that we do not necessarily know who Aristotle is, if anyone.That Aristotle is the same individual is not because of any knowledge about his essence or identity, but because of a casual chain linking Aristotle back through time to being the son of his parents at the moment of his baptism. — RussellA
I would agree with you if you mean that the idea of a possible possible world is incoherent. But all possible worlds are possible actual worlds. When we designate one of them, we are making that possibility actual. We do not make the possible world vanish and an exactly similar, but numerically different actual world appear.IE, it is wrong to say that there are actual possible worlds. — RussellA
RussellA
as Berkeley pointed out, unless you can compare a representation with its original, you can't establish what, if anything, it is a representation of. — Ludwig V
The implication is that the existence of the causal chain is necessary and sufficient, presumably whether or not we know it. That's extremely hard to understand, because it suggests that we do not necessarily know who Aristotle is, if anyone. — Ludwig V
But all possible worlds are possible actual worlds. — Ludwig V
In standard modal logic there is exactly one actual world………………………We've a set of possible worlds, W, and we can label any one of these the actual world, w₀.
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