The authenticity is irrelevant. We are not to judge our neighbor. If they lie, that is their fault. But if you act and expect them to lie, that is your fault, for you have justified their behavior by your low esteem of them. They will say that you expected them to lie again anyway. Their behaviour would condemn itself if you weren't to condemn it.The problem with that is clearly the authenticity behind 'I repent' that has always stood firm within me, where a repetition of behaviour clearly outlines that the person is unwilling to actually admit to his/her wrongdoing. — TimeLine
Have I forgiven her because of my own experiences that enabled me to understand her better or have I forgiven her because she acknowledged her wrongdoing? — TimeLine
The authenticity is irrelevant. We are not to judge our neighbor. If they lie, that is their fault. But if you act and expect them to lie, that is your fault, for you have justified their behavior by your low esteem of them. They will say that you expected them to lie again anyway. Their behaviour would condemn itself if you weren't to condemn it. — Agustino
The authenticity is irrelevant. We are not to judge our neighbor. If they lie, that is their fault. But if you act and expect them to lie, that is your fault, for you have justified their behavior by your low esteem of them. — Agustino
Whether they accept your forgiveness or not is a different story, but you should always forgive.Evidence is founded when mistakes are not repeated so indeed you can reconcile with such a person, but you cannot forgive. — TimeLine
Their lack of honesty is theirs, why is that relevant to you? Their apology has no meaning or substance. That says something about them, not about you. If you treat them as if that's the case though, you will justify their behavior and aggression towards you by the low esteem you hold of them.Authenticity is certainly relevant and while your example is correct, likewise it is not about expecting them to lie but rather whether your actions of continually forgiving them despite the lack of honesty reduces apologies into nothing but a word with no meaning or substance. — TimeLine
Virtue and compassion are like two sharp swords Baden - they may seem weak if you haven't understood their logic.And no, you don't justify someone else's behaviour by taking reasonable precautions against it. Don't pretend you actually act that way in real life. You wouldn't last five minutes. — Baden
I think you are equivocating on this word. Yes, you do form opinions of people, however, the type of judgment that is in discussion here is not the passive, automatic one, but the active one that impacts your behavior towards them.We constantly judge our neighbours. — Baden
Yes you do. If we live together, and I lock myself in one room at night for fear that you will kill me, that would justify aggressive behavior from you and may actually even bring it about.And no, you don't justify someone else's behaviour by taking reasonable precautions against it. — Baden
Their lack of honesty is theirs, why is that relevant to you? Their apology has no meaning or substance. That says something about them, not about you. If you treat them as if that's the case though, you will justify their behavior and aggression towards you by the low esteem you hold of them. — Agustino
... true reconciliation requires a rebuilding of trust. — Baden
Yes you do. If we live together, and I lock myself in one room at night for fear that you will kill me, that would justify aggressive behavior from you and may actually even bring it about. — Agustino
I agree with him regarding reconciliation.Because baden is correct — TimeLine
Yes indeed. A person who requires excessive contrition in order to forgive - who demands authenticity - is a person who lacks the virtue of magnanimity of soul. Don't judge and you will not be judged.What you are saying is that you don't care about other people, you don't care about the well-being of the community as long as you are safe from being morally liable, which I find to be paradoxical.
How you forgive does actually say something about you. — TimeLine
Authenticity is certainly relevant and while your example may be correct, likewise it is not about expecting them to lie but rather whether your actions of continually forgiving them despite the lack of honesty reduces apologies into nothing but a word with no meaning or substance. We find evidence or "proof" when mistakes are not repeated so indeed you can reconcile with such a person, but you cannot forgive. — TimeLine
In reality no. But what will actually happen is that you will start fearing that they might take some sort of action against you because they are afraid, which will paradoxically drive you to violence yourself.If someone acts afraid of you, you are not justified in being aggressive towards them on the basis of that fact. True or false? — Baden
I find forgiveness rather odd. In order to forgive, one must first condemn. It seems like an internal moral economy; you done me wrong, you owe me - but I'm going to forgive the debt. But then, I'm not going to forgive the debt until you repent, that is until you acknowledge the debt. This being a part payment? Or an undertaking not to do me more wrong? Perhaps forgiveness is a gift that can only be meaningfully given to one who feels a need for it. — unenlightened
Reconciliation is a more mutual affair; we reconcile our points of view of the past; we understand each other. It's not something I can do on my own, and it's not inherently unequal. It requires truth. — unenlightened
Whether they accept your forgiveness or not is a different story, but you should always forgive. — Agustino
We constantly judge our neighbours. We've been designed that way and it's impossible not to judge at some level. Those that couldn't or wouldn't are dead ends on the tree of life. — Baden
Of course. It's actually part of the hidden strategies of war in Chinese history as well. Forgiveness of the enemy. It's funny that the Chinese are more Machiavellian than Machiavelli by being rulers that you want to serve under, instead of rulers that are hated and feared - which pretty much is in direct contradiction with Machiavelli's weak advice. Which is precisely why in Western history we have few great strategic minds.I remember when Pope John Paul II went to the prison where the man who had shot him was locked up. They sat down, talked, and John Paul forgave him. It was a simple act of kindness and commitment and I found it very moving. I remember the guy was shocked and moved. — T Clark
It follows from the fact that a great soul can accept those smaller than themselves. — Agustino
A person who requires excessive contrition in order to forgive - who demands authenticity - is a person who lacks the virtue of magnanimity of soul. Don't judge and you will not be judged. — Agustino
The problem here is that reconciliation requires forgiveness. So, what happens then? — TimeLine
I remember when Pope John Paul II went to the prison where the man who had shot him was locked up. They sat down, talked, and John Paul forgave him. It was a simple act of kindness and commitment and I found it very moving. I remember the guy was shocked and moved. — T Clark
I'm saying hell and heaven are just reactions to Love.Are you saying there is no hell? — TimeLine
It also follows that you cannot reason with an ignorant egotist, like those people who pretend to be holier-than-thou when they clearly contradict themselves. — TimeLine
If you are a moral person all you have to do is be a mirror so that they can look at themselves as they are.if you were a moral person you would prefer to help them see the meaning behind the apology itself — TimeLine
Because baden is correct, our relations and interactions are the fundamental basis of who we are and we contrast and identify ourselves with others that make them just as much a part of us as our own subjectivity permits. When he said:
... true reconciliation requires a rebuilding of trust. — Baden
He is denoting authenticity and this reflects not only your personal moral position, but your ethical convictions as well. What you are saying is that you don't care about other people, you don't care about the well-being of the community as long as you are safe from being morally liable, which I find to be paradoxical. — TimeLine
This is completely and absolutely not true. Not judging is not an act of virtue or kindness, it's the most effective way of dealing with problems. Judging leads you in the wrong direction and makes you less effective. — T Clark
I wonder what rewards - other than protection - he received for his conversion. — TimeLine
The history of the world is the continuous expulsion of the victim - of God.The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. — John 1:9-11
You seem to be using the word "judging" in the derogatory sense, which means essentially "unfairly judging", something like being prejudiced. I'm using it in the general sense as in making judgements of people's intentions and likely behaviours. So, yes, we should make our judgements carefully and fairly but in the end we must judge someone, for example as sincere or insincere, in order to know how to act towards them. — Baden
Judging leads you in the wrong direction and makes you less effective. — T Clark
I have a different attitude towards forgiveness than you do. I think it's a factor of personality and also experience. For me, forgiving someone is something you do for yourself, not the other person. It's a surrender, a release. There is one thing in my life I did that I really regret. Many years later, I asked my friend for forgiveness. She thought about it and said - well, I don't really think you need to be forgiven. Then she did anyway, just in case she was wrong and to make me feel better. I guess when it comes down to it, I don't believe in forgiveness. I don't believe it's necessary. If you ask for it, you're asking the other person to let you off the hook. — T Clark
I agree, I think reconciliation is a lot clearer in that it is a mutual effort, however there needs to be meaning in this reconciliation, an honesty and authenticity that would enable it to adequately work, which requires building trust. Keeping that person out of your life is indeed not an unkind thing to do neither is it immoral, on the contrary it is a form of punishment as you attempt to articulate both your position on this said wrong and what you expect from others to be allowed to be in your personal space.As for reconciliation, again - it's something you do for yourself. You can forgive someone and not reconcile. This person that keeps hurting you and then apologizing - maybe you can just put them out of your life. That's not necessarily unkind, mean spirited, or inappropriate. It can be not worth the trouble to reconcile. — T Clark
I may not want to be married with her anymore, but I would forgive her and be friends with her. Not to forgive her is to justify her actions and approve of them. It would be to tell her that she was right to cheat on me, because I am a bad guy, and I didn't deserve her anyway.Augustino is saying that if his wife cheats on him repeatedly, he needs to represent himself as a moral person by continuously forgiving. He is being paradoxical. — TimeLine
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