My full explanation:

If God is omnipotent, then he is not constrained by logic.

We are not omnipotent. Asking if something is "possible" needs qualifiers. Possible in what situation? If you're asking me if 1+1=3 is possible in the world we live in currently, the answer is no. But God does not live in the world we live in, and so God is not bound by the laws of nature. God makes the laws of nature. So, if God is omnipotent, he could change the laws of nature to make 1+1=3, if he wanted to. It would be within his power. — JustSomeGuy

When you ask about the things God can do, you have to first make it clear what characteristics your God has.

If God is omnipotent, then yes, he can defy logic.

1+1=3 is possible. — bahman

This is a symbolic convention. It is not logic.

As a an aside, there are no two things that are exactly alike so we are doing arithmetic everything out of convention.

I was wondering whether there is an argument in favor or against this statement: "God can defy logic".

This issue raised up in another thread. I was questioning whether 1+1=3 is possible.
Can God defy logic? — bahman

I don't think even an omnipotent being could defy hard rules of logic. 1+1=3 is not possible in the traditional system of mathematics and it would not be any more possible for us than for God.

However, I don't think any legitimate definition of omnipotence would require a deity to be able to defy th laws of logic. I don't even think that 1+1=3 is even intelligible. What would it mean? What would it look like? What would it represent?

I don't even think that 1+1=3 is even intelligible. What would it mean? What would it look like? What would it represent? — Brian

1.) Everybody agrees on what one of something, S, looks like.

2.) Everybody agrees on what three of S looks like.

3.) You combine one of S with another one of S and get three of S.

If you don't know what I mean, imagine somebody pouring one liter of water into a container with one liter of water and it resulting in three liters of water. That does not happen in our world, but that does not mean that there are not other worlds where it happens.

Can God defy logic? — bahman

If yes, then what is the point of the free will?
If no, then what is the point of the free will?

Consider the classic refutation of God's omnipotence.

Could God create a rock which was so heavy that even he could not lift it? If he can't then he is not omnipotent because there is a logically possible object that he cannot create, if he can, then he can't be omnipotent because there is a logically possible task he cannot do.

The counter argument to this is that such a rock is not logically possible because a rock which is so heavy it cannot be lifted by an omnipotent being could not exist, it would have to be more than infinitely heavy.

So the problem arises, if God is not bound by logic, then where does that leave the refutation of the limits to his omnipotence. If he is not bound by logic, then he could create such a rock which would instantly disprove his omnipotence.

Logic is just rules for language use.

So your question amounts to "Can god do things that defy description?"

And that's a dead question - unless you care to set out a description of something that defies description...

Can someone who sees everything, say that: "I don't see why not." ?

We defy logic all the time. See Zeno's paradox. Moving between two points is logically impossible but we do it without a batting an eye.

Another thing is even our thoughts aren't "constrained" by logic. We all have some inconsistent beliefs floating around somewhere in our minds.

I don't see why God, an omnipotent being, should be limited by logic.

This is a symbolic convention. It is not logic. — Rich

I am arguing that 1+1=2 is symbolic equation which tells something we can assign to reality we observe, one apple plus one apple is equal two apples. The question is can we have 1+1=3 which again can appear as a property of reality? Is that possible?

As a an aside, there are no two things that are exactly alike so we are doing arithmetic everything out of convention. — Rich

I don't understand you?

I don't think even an omnipotent being could defy hard rules of logic. 1+1=3 is not possible in the traditional system of mathematics and it would not be any more possible for us than for God. — Brian

I agree.

However, I don't think any legitimate definition of omnipotence would require a deity to be able to defy the laws of logic. I don't even think that 1+1=3 is even intelligible. What would it mean? What would it look like? What would it represent? — Brian

I agree.

I am arguing that 1+1=2 is symbolic equation which tells something we can assign to reality — bahman

Sort of. There are no two things that are equal, so the equation doesn't represent anything we observe. It's a practical symbolic representation of an idea. Immobile symbology can never capture the motion of the universe, it can only approximate. Unfortunately, academic philosophy (for the most part) teaches the symbol is what it's real. It is actually just a convenience for communication.

One can say 1+1=3 as a cipher if one wishes, the meaning being deciphered by the receiver. It is just communication symbols, that is all.

If you don't know what I mean, imagine somebody pouring one liter of water into a container with one liter of water and it resulting in three liters of water. That does not happen in our world, but that does not mean that there are not other worlds where it happens. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I don't think such a world exist.

If yes, then what is the point of the free will?
If no, then what is the point of the free will? — Vajk

What free will has to do with our current discussion?

Consider the classic refutation of God's omnipotence.

Could God create a rock which was so heavy that even he could not lift it? If he can't then he is not omnipotent because there is a logically possible object that he cannot create, if he can, then he can't be omnipotent because there is a logically possible task he cannot do.

The counter argument to this is that such a rock is not logically possible because a rock which is so heavy it cannot be lifted by an omnipotent being could not exist, it would have to be more than infinitely heavy.

So the problem arises, if God is not bound by logic, then where does that leave the refutation of the limits to his omnipotence. If he is not bound by logic, then he could create such a rock which would instantly disprove his omnipotence. — Pseudonym

I cannot agree more.

Think about it (Only if you want).

1+1=2 represent something in reality.

Can someone who sees everything, say that: "I don't see why not." ? — Vajk

To me such a person is impossible.

We defy logic all the time. See Zeno's paradox. Moving between two points is logically impossible but we do it without a batting an eye. — TheMadFool

If movement is possible then there's a problem with Zeno's paradox. The issue we have is in figuring out what that problem is.

I think there should be a distinction between essential and accidental omnipotence. Although the stone paradox is a problem for essential omnipotence, it isn't a problem for accidental omnipotence. If God can create such a stone but doesn't then there's nothing he can't do. It's only if he does create the stone that he loses his omnipotence.

We defy logic all the time. See Zeno's paradox. Moving between two points is logically impossible but we do it without a batting an eye. — TheMadFool

There is no such a thing as Zeno's paradox. You can move along infinite instants if the duration between instants is good function of distance.

Another thing is even our thoughts aren't "constrained" by logic. We all have some inconsistent beliefs floating around somewhere in our minds. — TheMadFool

Self-contradictory ideas cannot exist.

I don't see why God, an omnipotent being, should be limited by logic. — TheMadFool

Because such an illogical reality is impossible.

Self-contradictory ideas cannot exist. — bahman

I believe he was referring to cognitive dissonance, which is a real phenomenon.

I am sorry. I have to correct myself. I wanted to write "Self-contradictory ideas cannot exist in reality". They are impossible in any world. Cognitive dissonance is a mental phenomena.

The responses here honestly surprise me.

If God cannot defy logic, then God is not omnipotent. Plain and simple. A God who can defy logic would be more powerful than a God who cannot, and omnipotence means "all-powerful".

If you're going to claim God cannot defy logic, you're claiming God is bound by the laws of the universe he himself created (assuming we're talking about a creator God).

With all of this...



...you're talking about things that are not possible in our universe. These things are not possible because of the way our universe operates. We cannot say anything about what any other possible universe/reality could look like, because we only have experience of our own. We are limited by our universe. God is not.

If you believe God is limited by our universe, then he cannot be omnipotent, and he cannot be the creator of it. That's fine, you can believe in that sort of God, but when people speak about God they're usually speaking about an omnipotent creator God.

If you believe God is limited by our universe, he cannot be omnipotent, and he cannot be the creator of it — JustSomeGuy

Doesn't follow. He might have had the power to create it but not have the power to do whatever he likes with the result.

A God who can defy logic would be more powerful than a God who cannot, and omnipotence means "all-powerful". — JustSomeGuy

If defying logic is nonsense then to say that a God who can defy logic is more powerful than a God who can't is like saying that a four-sided triangle has more sides than a three-sided triangle.

The triangle with the most sides has three sides, because a triangle with more sides is nonsense. The God with the most power has the power to do anything that is logically consistent, because a God doing the logically inconsistent is nonsense.

If you're just going to define "omnipotence" in such a way that it requires the power to defy logic then the problem is with your definition, not with the notion of a creator God.

He might have had the power to create it but not have the power to do whatever he likes with the result. — Michael

I'd like to see an argument for that as a reasonable possibility. If God created the universe and all of the laws by which it operates, what reason would there be to believe that he could not control it once it was created? Seems baseless, to me.

If defying logic is nonsense then to say that a God who can defy logic is more powerful than a God who can't is like saying that a four-sided triangle has more sides than a three-sided triangle. — Michael

It's not at all like that. Claiming that a God who can do something that another God cannot is more powerful, would be equivalent to saying that a shape with more sides than another shape has more sides. It's essentially a tautology.

Claiming that "defying logic is nonsense" is also a tautology. You're just describing what "defying logic" means. The claim that "defying logic is nonsense" isn't saying anything at all in regards to the issue at hand.

If God is omnipotent, he can just change the laws, and the new system of laws would be the new logical system.

Does God make judgements? If so, then does it not use logic to do so? Does God create, or have a causal effect on the things around it? If so, then there is a logical process to the acts of God.

So it doesn't seem like a valid question to ask if God can defy logic, as God defines what is logical. There could never be such thing as God being illogical, or defying logic. God would be the source of what is logical, always.

Interesting perspective. Very similar to the morality issue.

It's not at all like that. Claiming that a God who can do something that another God cannot is more powerful, would be equivalent to saying that a shape with more sides than another shape has more sides. It's essentially a tautology. — JustSomeGuy

There is no God who can do the logically impossible, as such a thing is incoherent. There is just (possibly) a God who can do the logically possible, and that's as powerful as anything can possibly be.