but I can use my awareness of your condition to try to work within the game to enable you to understand these responses. It is a tool to communicate.
The concern i had in response to un’s post - one i voiced a little too flippantly - was something like: self-consciousness coupled with a desire for authenticity makes all the world a game - and its a game thats like a trap, and the sorrow of it is that probably not everyones fallen prey to it, so that anything you can do to try to connect, from within the trap, to people outside it, will be expressed from within it, and pass silently by the people you want most to hear it. — csalisbury
The trap comes only when you never can take of the mask. Masks are everywhere; only certain types of people (including me) cant take em off. — csalisbury
ultimately we are alone — TimeLine
The concern i had in response to un’s post - one i voiced a little too flippantly - was something like: self-consciousness coupled with a desire for authenticity makes all the world a game - and its a game thats like a trap, and the sorrow of it is that probably not everyones fallen prey to it, so that anything you can do to try to connect, from within the trap, to people outside it, will be expressed from within it, and pass silently by the people you want most to hear it. — csalisbury
You wont ever get through, is the fear. The mask is plastered forever. You fell in the trap and others havent and theres no way to think yourself out of that state of affairs. More than anything it was a post that said: im sad, and i think you get why, im pretty sure, but im skeptical that what youre selling helps. — csalisbury
Society and all the rest - makeuped girls, testosteroned men - thats all part of the same self talk that characterizes bpd and its cousins. Kardashians and The Rock - theyre the [vague threat] which has to be defended against (against abandonment.) the bigger you make the threat, the larger abandonment looms and the more you play the same game (while decrying it elsewhere.) society is much less monolithic than Society, especially a personally inflected Society. — csalisbury
Hello Alone, I'm Frightened. — unenlightened
Ever been to a Quaker Meeting? A bunch of people still and silent together with intent.
— unenlightened
Meet Authentic. Authentic, this is Sad, and Alone, and I'm Frightened. Unfortunately, Authentic does not know her own name, which makes conversation confusing at times. But she is beautiful, isn't she? — unenlightened
I am unsure of several aspects to your argument here, in particular whether self-consciousness is this self-awareness (transcendental apperception) or whether it is that doubt and constant preoccupation to ourselves that is largely formed because of society (Rousseau)? In addition, why would people desire authenticity? They are being authentic the moment they desire authenticity since the latter is a state of mind, self-reflective empirical psychology or the way that we approach the contents of our cognitive states. — TimeLine
Let us take that to an individual level and pretend you have deep feelings of insecurity that make you follow and do everything your partner does. It takes away your responsibility to make your own decisions, you are saved from your emotional instability and feelings of worthlessness because your are getting someone else to think for you and thus artificially enabling a sense of security. You tell yourself that you are not copying, that in fact you do have your own identity and personality, but your imagination comforts you with this to overcome the sorrow of being unable to be authentic about your motives. If it takes away this self-consciousness and preoccupation or doubt - thus the anxiety and unhappiness - is this discourse between you and your partner not a positive thing? — TimeLine
almost all of conversation is just a way to try to be ok with being in the presence of the other person — csalisbury
Uncharacteristically at ease. at some point he said : almost all of conversation is just a way to try to be ok with being in the presence of the other person. — csalisbury
I don't think that's quite what he meant, though a certain kind of manipulation -It's not how I usually use conversation, except when I want to be manipulative.
This is too fatalistic for my taste, it concedes into a state of 'oh well' like someone who admits 'yep, I am a coward!' when they are proven to be wearing a mask. Why or why did I not take the blue pill? You can get through the fear. How? There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. — TimeLine
The threat itself is overcome through society; when a person is told that they are wrong, they immediately go on the defensive to this 'threat' and usually try to mobilise other people to take their side. It comforts them, takes away that insecurity and heals them from the terror that the collapse of their own narcissism would cause. Someone like you would distrust what I say since what I say hits home in a very uncomfortable way. So, I must be wrong.
The threat itself is overcome through society; when a person is told that they are wrong, they immediately go on the defensive to this 'threat' and usually try to mobilise other people to take their side. It comforts them, takes away that insecurity and heals them from the terror that the collapse of their own narcissism would cause
It's not how I usually use conversation, except when I want to be manipulative.
I don't think that's quite what he meant, though a certain kind of manipulation -
I think what you're talking about - can definitely be an outgrowth of that. I think it would be expressed better like this: a conversation is a way of two people trying to be ok in one another's presence. He included silence in that as well, so maybe its a loose meaning of conversation. Trying to be ok was probably the wrong way to put it because it also includes just being ok. But naturally there are unpleasant ways this kind of dynamic can play out as well. — csalisbury
Someone like you
But it is a mere observation that quite often people do feel inauthentic, that they do feel trapped in a role, if not in a hall of mirrors where their sense of their own unreality is disquieting. — unenlightened
So my theory, such as it is, is that there is a process of identification whereby one separates oneself from one's condition in order to name it, describe it, analyse it. So when I identify myself as frightened, I have split into a frightened self and an identifying self who is not frightened but critical. In this way, self-consciousness is always necessarily a fragmented condition - and in saying that, I am taking the third position of analyst, or God. What I think people feel the loss of, is what I have called authenticity, which is a whole-hearted, un-reflective condition which does not name itself, and does not perform itself in the sense of conforming itself to an idea. — unenlightened
There are clear limitations in authenticity — TimeLine
If you fall in love with a girl that has all the wrong qualities and that everyone you know thinks is wrong for you and appears to be an all round wrong person, but yet you feel she is right, you trust that above all else. We move up and away from thinking what we are told to think to appreciate our personal feelings and responses. Otherwise you are safe, but miserable. — TimeLine
. We move up and away from thinking what we are told to think to appreciate our personal feelings and responses. Otherwise you are safe, but miserable. — TimeLine
Perhaps we are talking about different things. I mean something close to real as opposed fake. More of an on-off thing. — unenlightened
Could be that you're wrong and they're right but you're drunk off the emotions of love. — Hanover
Or maybe your confidence is reckless and you've got a great big helping of misery on the horizon. A lot of time friends don't tell you they think your significant other sucks because they don't want to alienate you, and then when it all falls apart they say "yeah, I knew she was a train wreck," and you're like, "why didn't you tell me," and they're like "because you wouldn't have listened" and you're like "true." So what I'm saying is that there is a degree of maturity in listening to others and hearing them out. Other people can bring a perspective you don't have, and it's not an abandonment of individuality to listen to them. — Hanover
Perfect love - well it sounds like a 'solution,' in the sense I'm talking about. Of course your quote is about religious love. I think that's a good thing to hold onto on a personal, spiritual level. The ideal of an absolute unconditional love is, imo, a crucial ingredient for getting you through the really hard times. But locating this sort of love in something (or someone) worldly can make things worse, I think. For the simple reason that there's basically no such thing as perfect love on earth. — csalisbury
Now, if they react to your comedy-take, and especially if eye-contact is made, then you're dealing with a grand-master. The end-game is much harder to train for as it is both seldom reached and highly circumstantial. I've only entered a handful of end-games myself, but luckily all my opponents immediately reigned by mentioning the weather. Good thing too. Lord knows what I'm capable of when backed into such a corner... — VagabondSpectre
:up: Excellent readIt's not how I usually use conversation, except when I want to be manipulative. But you bring us neatly back to transactional analysis - I'm ok, you're ok. — unenlightened
. A lot of time friends don't tell you they think your significant other sucks because they don't want to alienate you, and then when it all falls apart they say "yeah, I knew she was a train wreck," and you're like, "why didn't you tell me," and they're like "because you wouldn't have listened" and you're like "true." So what I'm saying is that there is a degree of maturity in listening to others and hearing them out. Other people can bring a perspective you don't have, and it's not an abandonment of individuality to listen to them. — Hanover
I am saying that authenticity is a state of mind — TimeLine
That's the point. It doesn't matter, you follow that gut instinct especially if it stands in contrast to what people would like or approve because then you know it is your decision. Many people follow, they have their token partner and approval from their parents, environment, culture, religion etc and thus live in that quiet desperation. As long as it is your choice, it doesn't matter if it is a mistake or not. — TimeLine
As long as it is your choice, it doesn't matter if it is a mistake or not. — TimeLine
There is a lot of maybe this and maybe that and of course there is nothing wrong with listening to friends, but ultimately you know more, you have experienced an intimacy that far outweighs what anyone else could offer and it is your life that you put at risk. Sometimes rationally you could think a thousand things of why someone is wrong, but your gut still tells you otherwise, that gut feeling is yours. — TimeLine
I don't think I'm being particularly cryptic, so probably, I don't know what I'm talking about. — unenlightened
Nevertheless, I am fairly clear that authenticity is a state of congruence between state of mind and behaviour. And this aligns with the authenticity of a work of art, if it actually created by the person it is purported to be by, rather than a forger. So my smile is authentic if it is an expression of my happiness or amusement and inauthentic if it is a cover for my anxiety or anger, or whatever. Thus the inauthentic state is a divided state between what is portrayed and what is felt, whereas the authentic state is wholehearted. — unenlightened
If your reason for deference is because you seek approval, then it's a bad decision and an abandonment of your right to decide. It's possible also that you have noticed a rather poor ability to decide, like if you seek out the same crazy every time and thereby experience the same predictable results, then maybe you should listen to others. Isn't that the purpose for a therapist to some degree, to gain some perspective and objective feedback to try to avoid the same mistakes or limitations? — Hanover
Aren't the prisons filled with people who made bad mistakes that really did matter? It might be better that I not ride a motorcycle without a helmet at 100 miles per hour, even though the rush I get from having my pony tail flowing in wind is so freeing. — Hanover
I’ve had a similar experience, tho probably lesser in degree, working as a dispatcher.. I’m usually totally checked out when I call towing companies, thinking about other stuff, but I have a kind of auto-pilot laid-back approach, mechanically making jokes and laughing at their jokes, and keeping the vibe nice (especially if I’m trying to sell a job that isnt really worth their time.) There’s been a few moments where its become clear that a driver thinks we’re pals and it usually makes me deeply uncomfortable.I ran a village shop for a few years, back in the day, and my life was filled from 8AM to 6PM with endless pleasantries. For years afterwards, people would greet me as if I was their best friend; as if the automated patter was intimate conversation
"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." In the case of love between two people, I would say never listen to others. — TimeLine
If you want to spend a rampant weekend with some relatively unknown woman of obscure origins and your friend tells you that is a mistake because she might have an STD or the moral dimensions are problematic because you have a family, then yes, listen to your friends. The purpose of love - namely that of moral consciousness - as I have iterated earlier is that it works as a tool that enables authenticity, so if you doubt yourself and are insecure to such a degree that you follow others and do what you are told, you are automaton and no longer exist and often such people end up spending rampant weekends in secret to try and escape from their own misery. There is no authenticity in their behaviour. — TimeLine
When a person experiences an inner anxiety or subjective discomfort, that is the inner 'I' telling them that something is wrong, an intuitive awareness explaining that they are conforming to their social environment but they are not consciously aware that their choices in life is really them seeking approval and as such live in this quiet desperation. — TimeLine
Yeah, you are clearly having some trouble understanding the purpose of this thread. I am attempting to explain it using sophomoric language but perhaps epistemology is a bit beyond your scope? — TimeLine
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