Sure, I've already said that I'm not committed to saying that ALL sex is immoral, just that certain kinds (which may entail most) sex is.

Sexual relationships tend to be characterized by a passive-active role. Heterosexual relationships tend to place the man in the active role and the woman in the passive role. This private affair is a mirroring of the patriarchal system in general.

I have read some sociologists who have said that the roles can be reversed. The woman "welcomes" the penis into her vagina, instead of the man always penetrating the woman. And sure, maybe this can be interpreted like this. But let's be frank: penetration is the term most often used and associated with PIV sex. Penetration of the vagina by the penis. Penetration of the passive member by the active member.

It's also been shown that chemicals in semen influence the behavior of women. Pheromones in general influence people's behavior. They are intoxicating. Can someone give true consent if they are intoxicated?

I have allready said that its important to communicate well. if either of them was unhappy with something, that they need to talk about it. this goes for sex too, if someone isnt in the mood e.c.t.

could I ask what your age is?

I mean if you were young, you may not have had to much knowlegde about it

Bitter wrote, "...Since the definition of the male orgasm is to ejaculate..."

This is a very common misconception. Ejaculation is entirely separate from the male orgasm. The orgasm precedes the ejaculatory response, even if by a scant second. Usually, that intense eye-rolling feeling takes place two or three full seconds prior to ejaculation...and this is the orgasm.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/stages-male-sexual-response

I also happen to have a low libido that makes me basically asexual. I have never had sex nor do I particularly have the need or desire to. I believe I see sex in a different way than most people do and this may be influenced by my lack of sex drive. — darthbarracuda

So you have a low libido, have never had sex, and feel asexual. I sort of feel that way myself, now that I am fairly old. You should live your life the way you see fit. Since you have not, and maybe will not experience sex in the manner that most people do, you might want to be cautious about which interpretation of sex you adopt.

Sex as mere biology (though nothing is "mere", per Feynman) limits our understanding of sexuality as much as presuming sex to be a patriarchal subordination of women or a capitalist transaction or thinking that men defile women during sex.

The ways we are embodied and the way we experience the world are closely tied up together. It is through our body (including sex) that we experience the world and it is within the body that we build our being. If we can't comfortably exist as the body we are, we can't comfortably exist in the world [except by maintaining very carefully policed non-porous boundaries between the self and the world].

Sex seems clumsy, awkward and particularly unsanitary. — darthbarracuda

Life is unsanitary. We are surrounded by an ocean of biological particles, viruses, bacteria, pollen, parasites, dirt, odors, and so on. We inhale and exhale, eat and excrete all sorts of creatures and biological by-products. We are constantly shedding skin; there is an army of skin-mites in your carpet, sheets, mattress, and pillows eating and digesting your skin. We lose our skin about 12 times a year. The skin mites and other scavengers that live with you are grateful for your flaking hide. There are more single celled creatures inside of and on us (and you) than there are bodily cells. Gut bacteria in the trillions aren't just there, they are absolutely essential. Animals evolved together with gut bacteria. We can not do without them.

Young children who are not exposed to enough bacteria, viruses, pollen, dirt, and so forth tend to get sick more often and have very strong allergic reactions and asthma because they missed getting dirty enough. Once you are grown up, playing in the dirt ceases to be beneficial to the immune system.

Sometimes sex is clumsy and awkward. How else can it be in a small car, in a tree, in a public washroom, in the snow, in the sand, in the choir loft, etc. Older, wiser, and better funded people arrange for a bed, bath, and beyond -- like privacy, the right temperature, food and drink, etc.

Thank you for providing this clarification. Clarity and precision are good things. Next time I'll keep a stop watch handy so I can make more accurate observations. "Oh god, oh..." CLICK tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick CLICK gush, squirt, drip. "Hey, he's right -- 2.1 seconds between orgasm and ejaculation. Let's do this 3 more times to make sure we have it right. Your turn."

There are very, VERY, few males that in a relationship are willing to take the time to allow a woman to orgasm. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

We're limited by our personal experiences though, so you may be speaking of what you experience instead of what is typically experienced.

You didn't say how low your orgasm count was. You don't have anything against you masturbating, do you? There's that relevant old joke, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice." Women have a right to orgasm (it was a subsection of the failed Equal Rights Amendment, a few decades back. "Women can have as many orgasms as they like.") The subsection was added to quell the likelihood of female rioting: sexually satisfied women are much less likely to riot in the streets. — Bitter Crank

I didn't give a number because it is so low and it is not from a lack of experience or different people.
You ask an interesting question about having something against mastrubating and the imprint of my upbringing plays a big role on what is described as something dirty girls do. Even now I am an empty house ( closet ) pleasurer.
(It goes without saying that I am sharing here in a respectful way and would appreciate that being reciprocated.)

However, life does keep bringing me back to this basic need of allowing self pleasure to be content.
It is a struggle between what I want to want and what I allow myself to satisfy. It's not easy to understand what I am trying to explain but I am open to suggestions if you understand the battle within me.

You certainly don't have to depend on someone else providing you with orgasms. — Bitter Crank

I read your words and I understand your suggestion but I have a really hard time clearing my head of all thought while trying to physically remain in charge and drift off to enjoy the moment. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way.

Even with just myself, I start thinking right when I should be in ultimate pleasure and bam, it's like my Mother in law walked in the house. And then it's over, that moment is gone.

We're limited by our personal experiences though, so you may be speaking of what you experience instead of what is typically experienced. — Hanover

True but I am not someone who is lacking personal experience. Now I have been with the same person for the last two decades but I would be hard pressed to be able to name all the men I was with before getting married.

The last time I tried to recall them, the moon was bright, the girls and I around the fire pit and we counted 18. So I have tasted what is on the salad bar but I really want to get to where the Champagne and Truffles that I have heard so much about are.

Now I have been with the same person for the last two decades but I would be hard pressed to be able to name all the men I was with before getting married. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

You go girl.

So I have tasted what is on the salad bar but I really want to get to where the Champagne and Truffles that I have heard so much about are. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Sorry, I'm taken.

I am assuming you wish to have more orgasms. Not everybody does -- Garthbarracuda, for one, says he has little interest -- low libido, etc.

Masturbation requires that one pay attention -- it's like Yoga that way. One has to focus on sexual feelings, thoughts, images, actions. There seem to be 3 main methods of maintaining focus:

1. Men frequently use porn to assist in focusing on the sexual goal. Some women do too, I have heard. What porn does is provide an arousing object of interest that is sufficiently captivating to overcome the distractions of mental traffic. (In other words, it's a turn on.) If porn doesn't turn you on, then don't bother with it.

2. If porn isn't available there is fantasy. Fantasy was the main thing before the internet came along and provided the pornocopia. I haven't done a survey, but some men with whom I have discussed this report that at any one time they had a favorite fantasy, which they used over and over. Old fantasies were discarded and new ones were created from time to time. Fantasy also requires some diligence: you have to imagine scenarios that turn you on, and (I think) they need to be simple enough to enjoy without much plot management. It's your fantasy; you never have to tell anybody what it is.

3. A third approach is mechanical assistance. Many people like vibrators. In fact the vibrator was invented as a medical sexual tool. (This was in the early days of wide-spread electrical distribution.) Doctors offered vibrator treatment for tension. It was quite popular. It can be used in conjunction with 1 and 2.

4. Some people prefer silence; others prefer a soundtrack. Whatever works to suppress mind-wandering. Touching one's self is, obviously, a necessary part. Some people like a bed, some a hot bath, some a car parked in a private spot, and so on.

Yoga techniques can help. Steady, slow pauseless breathing can help one center. So can progressive relaxation. (There's nothing very complicated about either of these.)

Maybe I am the only one who feels this way.

Even with just myself, I start thinking right when I should be in ultimate pleasure and bam, it's like my Mother in law walked in the house. And then it's over, that moment is gone. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

You are not the only one.

Contrary to the cliché, lots of people are not sexually liberated. Millions of people have soaked up very negative scripts about sex, and many of the scripts end up condemning us for being sexual at all, let alone being even slightly eager for sex. It takes time and effort to overcome the negative attitudes about sex, sexuality, pleasure, desire, all that. The 1960s were exciting times for some, mostly young, people. But the 1960s (and decades following) kept up the tradition of characterizing sex as either chaste and procreative (a la Agustino) or degenerate.

Definitely stop thinking about your mother in law.

BTW, the champaign and truffle feature is not offered at the price point that gets one salad bars. You'll have to upgrade a couple of notches for that.

Yo, two glasses of red, a joint, and then ask your partner to give you oral for 30 minutes straigth.

It has never not worked, regardless of gender.

And this should be mandatory study material for any young women or men.

Are you saying that people have to be intoxicated for sex to be comfortable?

No, of course not, but really, 'intoxication' is such a dirty word.

I dont think it has to be so controversial that certain particular states are easier to acheive through mind alterating substances. And, in my personal experience, both for me and for my partners, the state in which the mix of marijuana and red wine puts us seems very conducive to a .... relaxed hornyness?

Its just a good sense trick, like eating pasta and drinking lots of fluid the night before an orgy. That doesnt have to mean Im advocating turning into wino potheads for the sake of pleasure.


But Im not NOT advocating that, too. :naughty:

The point this is being missed about sex is, sex evolved as a path for reproduction which increases genetic diversity in offspring. This is the natural and primary goal of sex. The pleasure of sex is the carrot on the string; secondary, used to lead the critter to the primary goal. Humans are not always natural, so they tend to get it backwards.

A parallel is eating food. Eating food can be very pleasurable. The pleasure of eating is the carrot on the string, so we try new things to eat; omnivore, and so we get enough nutrients and calories to satisfy the natural biochemical needs of the body.

Say we were to eat food for only pleasure, without any regard to the natural primary; body's nutrient and energy needs. We place the secondary first. The body would get overweight and may become deprived of needed nutrients; chocolate cake all the time. This would be unnatural and unhealthy and lead to problems. Modern culture attempts to keep people aware of the primary use of food; nutrition, via food labels and calorie counts, so a balance is struck.

The same is true of sex. The unnatural path of using the secondary as the primary is reflected in STD's and psychological problems and sublimations. Using an instinctive secondary, as the primary, is an example of human will power and free will. It is short term thinking where the long term result may not always be satisfactory or healthy at many levels.

The female's natural role in sexuality is much more involved than that of the male. She will get pregnant, grow an offspring, give birth and raise the child. Because of that, it is harder for the female to override the primary in favor of the secondary, using will power and choice. This is reflected in female inhibitions. She may go through the motions, via willpower and choice, but fall short in orgasm.

Abortion is not natural, but is an example of free will and choice. The goal of abortion appears to be a disruption in the natural primary goal, in favor of the secondary coming first. This is like passing a law that repeals all nutritional labelling on food, so people can eat for pleasure in peace without regard to the natural consequences.

BTW, the champaign and truffle feature is not offered at the price point that gets one salad bars. You'll have to upgrade a couple of notches for that. — Bitter Crank

Hmmmm…….

Yo, two glasses of red, a joint, and then ask your partner to give you oral for 30 minutes straigth. — Akanthinos

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ will NEVER work on a lady.
Where did this whole "do me" attitude come from?

You are not the only one.

Contrary to the cliché, lots of people are not sexually liberated. Millions of people have soaked up very negative scripts about sex, and many of the scripts end up condemning us for being sexual at all, let alone being even slightly eager for sex. It takes time and effort to overcome the negative attitudes about sex, sexuality, pleasure, desire, all that. — Bitter Crank

I am relieved to hear I am not the only one and Thank you for the lovely guide on ways to get closer to where I do want to get, because I do want to get there or at least not have it be an issue that keeps coming up.
You really are a therapist in many ways and I do appreciate you taking the time to get inside my head and mirror back to me what I am saying and what it looks like. I don't really care for the way I look in the sexual/sensual sense but my damn thinking comes back in with serious force.

I have never tried Yoga and that is something that appeals to me but again that intimacy factor comes rushing back in and my need to protect myself raises my shield. Weird huh?

Hum, plenty of people on all sides of the gender wheel enjoys giving oral. And also enjoys having their partner voice their desires.

If you cant ask your partner for a specific thing, out of shame, then you arent really partners.

The point this is being missed about sex is, sex evolved as a path for reproduction which increases genetic diversity in offspring. This is the natural and primary goal of sex. The pleasure of sex is the carrot on the string; secondary, used to lead the critter to the primary goal. Humans are not always natural, so they tend to get it backwards. — wellwisher

Since the primary use of sex is pleasure, I would say that the primary purpose is pleasure, with pregnancy being a byproduct that is most often not fully expected.

The same is true of sex. The unnatural path of using the secondary as the primary is reflected in STD's and psychological problems and sublimations. Using an instinctive secondary, as the primary, is an example of human will power and free will. It is short term thinking where the long term result may not always be satisfactory or healthy at many levels. — wellwisher

Historically, pregnancy has been a far greater threat to health than STDs.

Abortion is not natural, but is an example of free will and choice. The goal of abortion appears to be a disruption in the natural primary goal, in favor of the secondary coming first. This is like passing a law that repeals all nutritional labelling on food, so people can eat for pleasure in peace without regard to the natural consequences. — wellwisher

If the distinction between natural and unnatural is that the latter involves the exercise of free will, then sex is unnatural.

If you cant ask your partner for a specific thing, out of shame, then you arent really partners — Akanthinos

Yes you are. You're just partners who aren't fully comfortable expressing your sexual desires.

Thank you for the masturbation manual. I'm wondering if there really are those who need such assistance.

It isn't that anybody here needs a manual; some people need permission and encouragement. I never needed permission; you never needed encouragement; some people do.

Since the primary use of sex is pleasure, I would say that the primary purpose is pleasure, with pregnancy being a byproduct that is most often not fully expected. — Hanover

Instincts have a final goal. Pleasure is a lure toward that goal. I used hunger and eating as a parallel since they use the same schema as sexuality. What you are saying is we should eat anything we want if it brings us pleasure, since pleasure comes first. What science has found is although we can willfully do this, it is not optimized for the body. It can create health problems. People are asked to control the lure and not chase every carrot on the string, so the final result is healthy.

An interesting observation is the left wing of the political movement is more outwardly concerned with natural things than the right wing; going green and save the earth. This is based on compensation for believing the secondary is the primary. There is an unconscious need for natural. The right wing is more old fashion about sex and sees it as the basis for reproduction and child raising. Since this is natural, the right has less need to compensate via a projection into nature.

The killing the earth or manmade global warming are projections due to group choices that are harming natural brain firmware hierarchies. Religions have no problem with sex in marriage and with this sex being pleasurable. The reason is, it is following the natural hierarchy. Birth control is not acceptable o avoid tricking the system via will power.

If you look at nature, animals tend to have breeding seasons, when fertility is maximized. When the final goal is set up, the carrot on the strong is triggered with pheromones. The trigger is not done based on willpower and choice, but when the goal of reproduction is engaged.

Humans are different in that willpower and choice allows us to recreate the past through memory thereby tricking the brain to release chemicals; the carrot, ahead and/or out of phase with the natural cycles of the brain. We can eat even when the body is not hungry using memory to trigger the same chemical release as hunger. It is humanly possible, but it should not be called natural since it often leads to unnatural balances.

What you are saying is we should eat anything we want if it brings us pleasure, since pleasure comes first. — wellwisher

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I've not advocated hedonism or irresponsibility and am aware that any excess can lead to problems. What I said was that the primary reason people engage in sexuality is for pleasure, beyond that, it is also used to build and sustain romantic relationships. The use of sexuality is rarely used specifically for reproduction. Most people attempt pregnancy only a few months of their entire lives. Those who cannot conceive due to age continue to have sex. It's hard to argue that someone who cannot conceive is having sex primarily to induce conception.

People are asked to control the lure and not chase every carrot on the string, so the final result is healthy. — wellwisher

Nothing you say here distinguishes having sex for pleasure from having sex for reproduction. It would seem more harmful for someone to recklessly try to have sex for reproduction as it would for someone to recklessly try to have sex for pleasure. The solution would therefore be to avoid being reckless, not insisting that people stop chasing pleasure but instead start chasing pregnancy.

An interesting observation is the left wing of the political movement is more outwardly concerned with natural things than the right wing; going green and save the earth. This is based on compensation for believing the secondary is the primary. — wellwisher

The desire to go green and save the earth is based upon the belief that not going green will destroy the earth. It's an empirical claim rejected by the right. Some on the left may argue that the preservation of the earth has inherent value in itself, but it seems an equally legitimate argument to argue that the protection of humanity can only be acheived by protecting the planet. Regardless, even if true, I don't see the relevance in pointing out that both the right and the left have an equal attachment to the irrational command that we do only that which is natural.

Religions have no problem with sex in marriage and with this sex being pleasurable. The reason is, it is following the natural hierarchy. Birth control is not acceptable o avoid tricking the system via will power. — wellwisher

This is not the common religious view, but one found primarily in the Catholic Church. Different religions treat contraception differently and it's a misrepresentation to suggest the religious view on contraception is monolithic.

It is humanly possible, but it should not be called natural since it often leads to unnatural balances. — wellwisher

You don't have a consistent definition of "natural."

The female's natural role in sexuality is much more involved than that of the male. She will get pregnant, grow an offspring, give birth and raise the child. Because of that, it is harder for the female to override the primary in favor of the secondary, using will power and choice. This is reflected in female inhibitions. She may go through the motions, via willpower and choice, but fall short in orgasm. — wellwisher

Do you really think that there is a chance "will power" can be increased or is it static?

Hum, plenty of people on all sides of the gender wheel enjoys giving oral. And also enjoys having their partner voice their desires.

If you cant ask your partner for a specific thing, out of shame, then you arent really partners — Akanthinos

I am in no way saying that "giving oral" pleasure while high and buzzed is a bad thing and asking is always a respectful thing to do.

Yo, two glasses of red, a joint, and then ask your partner to give you oral for 30 minutes straigth. — Akanthinos

However the entitlement to a minute on the clock to have to meet is absurdly assumptive and from my perspective a total turn off.

But please, by all means, keep that stop watch in your bedside pleasure chest. :up:

It isn't that anybody here needs a manual; some people need permission and encouragement. I never needed permission; you never needed encouragement; some people do — Bitter Crank

Thank you.