until the later comes knocking on my door spouting stupidities and the former insulting me on the internet — Terran Imperium

Then it would seem what you found offensive was the fact they knocked on your door saying things you thought stupid, and insulted you on the internet, not the fact they were transgender or feminist. Why bring up gender ideology, or feminism in that case?

So hormones don't count for anything? (All evidence suggests they change phenotype and alter the mental state).
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001180.htm
(fwiw, surgery is the final stage of transition the hrt is more important).

The obvious argument behind transsexualism is that the brain is intersex. see causes of intersexuality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Biological_factors Gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition and there are bio markers involved.

Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: 'XY' and 'XX' are genetic markers of health, not genetic markers of a disorder. — Terran Imperium

Seems this is also disputed: https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Blah blah blah blah blah.

You have way to many false premises for me even to begin.

What's really keeping them together, that's some other chemicals entering into play that I'm not going to go into details on but basically those chemicals aren't produced as much after they birthed a child or more, its because the body deemed its initial purpose of perpetuating the human species as done. That means divorce rates go up after having children, yes. — Terran Imperium

You fatalistic, abject muppet!

Prove that the hyle's existence and authenticity is the result of a neural impulse

Faith is all you have!

Initial purpose? Chemicals? Bwahahaha
You are in bad faith

In other words... The aetiological state of affairs based on this abstraction necessitates this abstraction delivering us to the conclusion that this abstraction is a truthful abstraction.
What a truth you have ascertained!
...

If it causes no harm to others, it shouldn't matter that X is biologically male or female but identifies otherwise. — Ciceronianus the White

That is the whole issue, encapsulated. :up: :smile: Whatever gender I identify as, it does you no harm, so please respect my preference and address me as I ask. I'll do the same for you. There. Sorted. :up:

So, its NOT harmful to encorage someone's delusions to the point where they allow a doctor to cut them up on a surgical table for profit?

Your poisonous words are difficult to respond to. I refer to someone's choice of personal address, and you respond by referring to someone who has delusions, but is offered gender reassignment surgery anyway, for the sake of profit. Then you accuse me of encouraging this? :rage: [People with delusions are not offered surgery in civilised countries.] That's a lot of venom to fit into so few words. Why not just say you feel hatred for non-cis humans? :vomit:

So, its NOT harmful to encorage someone's delusions to the point where they allow a doctor to cut them up on a surgical table for profit? — Harry Hindu

Ah. So if we merely treat them as we would anyone else, we encourage them. Yes, that makes sense.

Then it would seem what you found offensive was the fact they knocked on your door saying things you thought stupid, and insulted you on the internet, not the fact they were transgender or feminist. Why bring up gender ideology, or feminism in that case? — Ciceronianus the White

Here is the thing since you seem incapable of understanding the context of my words. I spoke in my first post why I was insulted on the internet in the first place. It revolves around the transgender and the feminist movement. I started this discussion to understand them better and lay out my way of thinking and my view on them if you read my first posts, you will see what I am talking about.

Running around the pot doesn't help your case, here.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

You have way to many false premises for me even to begin. — Blue Lux

You fatalistic, abject muppet! — Blue Lux

Prove that the hyle's existence and authenticity is the result of a neural impulse

Faith is all you have! — Blue Lux

In other words... The aetiological state of affairs based on this abstraction necessitates this abstraction delivering us to the conclusion that this abstraction is a truthful abstraction.
What a truth you have ascertained! — Blue Lux

I will not answer someone who doesn't seem capable of formulating a proper argument. I think if you reword it more politely and in a way everyone can understand, people then might consider you words. Otherwise, you are just making a fool out of yourself.

Ah. So if we merely treat them as we would anyone else, we encourage them. Yes, that makes sense. — Ciceronianus the White

Yes, it is harmful when you are treating someone with mental disillusions, normally, or in a more extreme example, treating a murderer, normally. Its a denial of the reality in front of them. Certainly when they demand of people to use previously unknown pronouns for their unique person. What a level of pretentiousness and ego. I will not change my language to fit someone's delusional world nor agree with their political view.

Its as if people are questioning the fact they are born in X year instead of Y year. If people are really seriously questioning something like that, something is wrong with them. That is the same thing for people questioning why were they born as a male/female and explicitly wanting to change it. You can't, you can only pretend to. You were born in X year but you can pretend you were born in Y year, you were born as a male but you can pretend you are now female, cool but don't go and demand of people to agree with your delusions.

So what if they are offended if I call someone a 'he' instead of a 'she' or from some alien pronoun like 'zer'. Is that person going to implode or something? Getting offended by something or someone say is a fact of life that will always happen somehow. If you are happy in your own little world don't go bothering other people with it.

Here is my final say on the matter. Changing your gender is your business. Trying to implement a new way of speech is unacceptable. My problem lies with the fact that people want me to be punished for not using the lingo they demand I use. That is fascism, that is control over another's speech.

A quote that fits this subject.

"We're getting the language into its final shape -- the shape it's going to have when nobody speaks anything else. When we've finished with it, people like you will have to learn it all over again. You think, I dare say, that our chief job is inventing new words. But not a bit of it! We're destroying words -- scores of them, hundreds of them, every day. We're cutting the language down to the bone." - From George Orwell's 1984.

If you read my previous posts more carefully, you'll notice that I didn't particularly care nor put much attention to the transgender people or the feminists until the later comes knocking on my door spouting stupidities and the former insulting me on the internet. No one would dedicate time to talk about a subject they aren't concerned about or doesn't affect them in any way. I'll be pretty stupid and hateful if I despised those people for no reason what so ever. — Terran Imperium

This is your post I was responding to. I can understand being annoyed by people who, uninvited, knock on your door to declaim something or another, or who insult you on the Internet. So, I suggested that's what you found objectionable, not the fact they're transgender or feminist. But, your last response to me was to the effect that my suggestion was inaccurate. If that's the case, though, it would seem we may infer that you do, indeed, find it objectionable that people are transgender or feminist.

That's unfortunate, but it's not their problem, nor should you make it a problem for them.

This is your post I was responding to. I can understand being annoyed by people who, uninvited, knock on your door to declaim something or another, or who insult you on the Internet. So, I suggested that's what you found objectionable, not the fact they're transgender or feminist. But, your last response to me was to the effect that my suggestion was inaccurate. If that's the case, though, it would seem we may infer that you do, indeed, find it objectionable that people are transgender or feminist.

That's unfortunate, but it's not their problem, nor should you make it a problem for them. — Ciceronianus the White

What I meant is, the initial subject is as to why they come knocking at my door and as to why I was insulted in the first place. It all comes down back to feminism and transgenderism and their ideologies which I don't particularly agree with and their intrusive nature when I didn't ask for it in those cases.

I understand if its just a misunderstanding, it happens sometimes but I think I layed out pretty much what I meant in my opening post and the ones following after it.

It is a problem from my point of view but I won't go whining about it nor crying out in the roof of my house like they do. There is a common rule among doctors is that you can't force a treatment down a patient's throat. The patient has the right to refuse to be treated and so are the transgender people and the feminists. There is a reason they are around on the news everywhere. Because they can't stop making a problem out of everything and it's annoying the hell out of me and everyone generally.

If we followed common sense, those people should already be in mental hospitals to be treated for their mental illness. You can't pretend to be something when you aren't, that's just lying to yourself, wait a few hundred years until we can somehow change our biological sex at will then you can start whining that people are certainly using the wrong pronoun when talking to you.

According to the Oxford Living Dictionaries:
"A state or condition in which a person's identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional ideas of male or female gender."
According to this definition, Trans-genderism is the matter of ideology.
According to the Cambridge Dictionary:
"The condition of someone feeling that they are not the same gender (= sex) as the one they had or were said to have at birth." — Terran Imperium

And, by this definition trans-genderism is the matter of somebody's personal self-identification. Both definitions open a way for changing gender. But what about "no gender"?

And, by this definition trans-genderism is the matter of somebody's personal self-identification. Both definitions open a way for changing gender. But what about "no gender"? — Number2018

That is obviously not possible. You are either female or male. You can't be something in between or a third weird gender, especially as we humans are a mammalian species. There are only two genders. Its a fact that cannot change.

If you look around I talked in one of my posts about how gender and sex were perfectly interchangeable until transgender people came along and separated the definitions. Sex now refer to your biological sexual organs and gender is a social construct since it determine whenever you are being feminine or masculine. I don't really mind this change, its just doesn't really affect me nor my everyday life in anyway.

I am more concerned about the points I layed out in the posts above.

It is a problem from my point of view but I won't go whining about it nor crying out in the roof of my house like they do. There is a common rule among doctors is that you can't force a treatment down a patient's throat. The patient has the right to refuse to be treated and so are the transgender people and the feminists. There is a reason they are around on the news everywhere. Because they can't stop making a problem out of everything and it's annoying the hell out of me and everyone generally. — Terran Imperium

Speak for yourself. The vast majority of people I know get a lot more annoyed by ignorant bigots like you who like to pretend to have a psychology degree, just so they can display your dislike.

Not only trans-gender people but those that thinks there is more than two genders. A non-binary gender? Really? — Terran Imperium

Sure. Not everyone's gender identity falls strictly within masculine and feminine domains. Arguments against this are supposed to be what?

This gender ideology contradicts basic biology.
Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: 'XY' and 'XX' are genetic markers of health, not genetic markers of a disorder. — Terran Imperium

Dictionaries are not good sources for evolving definitions nor technical definitions, of which our current understanding of gender and related issues falls into both camps. And you are proving this point perfectly. Being male or female does not have much to do with the issue at hand (hence the inadequacy of citing Cambridge and Oxford). Rather, the issue is on gender and gender identity.

Gender refers to secondary sexual characteristics, not primary ones like your biological sex. But since gender isn't a simple matter of chromosomes and sex organs, but a covers social roles, dress, physical attribute characterizations (e.g. looking masculine), it comes in degrees. It's not a binary because there's no clear cutoff point, it ranges from highly masculine attributes, to sort of masculine ones, to a more ambiguous territory (non-binary) and over into the feminine side. I mean, we often say young males ought to play with "boy toys" and girls with "girl toys", but those toys don't have sexual parts at all. They're just objects which model secondary sexual characteristics and represent common dress for the represented gender. Gender is not sex, this distinction is clearly made (if unconsciously) even in everyday speech.

Gender identity involves ones internal view of their gender. Like, I think of myself as a man. I intentionally adopt usual masculine dress, act "manly" (also like a dork), etc. But this is not true of everyone. Many people have a mismatch here, where their internal sense does not map onto what society says they're supposed to look and be like. Many transgender people have this dysphoria, though some non-trans people have it temporarily (some kids, I think; it goes away for many people).

To treat this as a simple issue, well, your initial post makes it clear you don't understand the basics of the topic at hand. You may have been insulted by whoever (I don't care honestly), but you are probably partly to blame if you acted as you did in your OP. Calling transgender people delusional, calling people you disagree with delusional, using dictionary definitions over the definitions used in academia. These do not endear you to anyone, it would piss me off if this was how you started your other discussion because it doesn't even meet the minimum of niceties one expects in discussions.

That is obviously not possible. You are either female or male. You can't be something in between or a third weird gender, especially as we humans are a mammalian species. There are only two genders. Its a fact that cannot change. — Terran Imperium

That reveals a rather striking lack of imagination. You could have 17 genders if all of them had a different historical basic function toward reproduction and gestation. There is absolutely nothing which demands that it gender be binary, other then the convenience and usefulness of it being so.

you can't force a treatment down a patient's throat — Terran Imperium

Of course you can. The patient may not like it, it may not be legal, it's very bad manners, but it is definitely possible.

You can't pretend to be something when you aren't — Terran Imperium

Of course you can. Anyone can "pretend" anything. The audience may not believe the fakery, the fakery may not be performed very well, and one may not be rewarded for one's efforts, but it is possible.

(Old joke: Neurotics build castles in the sky; psychotics live in them; psychiatrists collect the rent. In the case of sexual identity, gender clinics are collecting the rent.)

One of the phenomena we are confronted with a lot these days is excessive sensitivity to real or imagined slights, an epidemic of narcissism, and extremely inflexible ideology. So you have people whose ideology (feminism, just one of several) is very reactive. They are always set to go off when stepped on (like land mines), and their bellyaching is amplified in an echo chamber.

Of course it's possible for a man to imagine he is a woman, and visa versa. If they are good actors, he can fake it convincingly. Ditto for women who imagine they are men. I say, "Go right ahead. Imagine what you want, and if you can pull it off, you can act as if your fantasies are real. If you can't, people will just laugh at you. If you are an interesting person (whatever else you are) I'll be polite--I might even want to be your friend. What I won't do is join the show. I'm not going to pretend that you are actually a woman. If you have a penis, testicles, beard, xy chromosomes, and so on--all in working order, you can go to a chop shop and get remodeled, take estrogen, get your breasts enlarged, change your hair, wardrobe, etc. and you may look just like a woman. But to me you are still a man, (and visa versa if you are a woman imagining herself to be a man).

Well you certainly are a crank. I mean, one would think medical discrimination (access to treatments which can help individuals with dysphoria not being covered by their insurance), job discrimination for being a trans-person, various legal discrimination (such as "trans panic" defense found in many cases of violence against transpeople) and such would count as actual slights. But no, it's actually imagined and those fighting against helping people are bellyaching.

Where have I heard this song and dance from before?

That is obviously not possible. You are either female or male. You can't be something in between or a third weird gender, especially as we humans are a mammalian species. There are only two genders. Its a fact that cannot change. — Terran Imperium

Why not? It is a cliche, stereotype. Gender is socially produced and constructed. A construction of new gendered orientation(s) has become a powerful vector of individualization and self-fulfillment. It would be interesting to explore what forces are actually involved in this process.

To treat this as a simple issue, well, your initial post makes it clear you don't understand the basics of the topic at hand. You may have been insulted by whoever (I don't care honestly), but you are probably partly to blame if you acted as you did in your OP. Calling transgender people delusional, calling people you disagree with delusional, using dictionary definitions over the definitions used in academia. These do not endear you to anyone, it would piss me off if this was how you started your other discussion because it doesn't even meet the minimum of niceties one expects in discussions. — MindForged

It wasn't how I started the discussion, it wasn't even the main subject of our discussion and I barely mentioned it in a few words in 300 words long post, they only nitpicked that and started a heated debate that I didn't want anything in.

A woman can behave with a manly attitude, that's what people call a tomboy. Do you know the difference between a tomboy and a transgender man? I think you understand what I mean here. I won't go into detail but you are blurring the line between a woman with a bit of a manly personality with someone who is pretending and trying to make other people agree in the fact she is a man. That is unacceptable and it is what I was talking about

That reveals a rather striking lack of imagination. You could have 17 genders if all of them had a different historical basic function toward reproduction and gestation. There is absolutely nothing which demands that it gender be binary, other then the convenience and usefulness of it being so. — Akanthinos

Look, you can't. It's a biological reality. There aren't 17 genders, It's a fact that you can't change, it's how humanity is built and more than a few species actually.

Of course you can. The patient may not like it, it may not be legal, it's very bad manners, but it is definitely possible. — Bitter Crank

That's just jumping around the context of my words.

Of course you can. Anyone can "pretend" anything. The audience may not believe the fakery, the fakery may not be performed very well, and one may not be rewarded for one's efforts, but it is possible. — Bitter Crank

Same here. Of course, my choice of word might have been poor. Although as I said the context of my words were pretty clear about that.

One of the phenomena we are confronted with a lot these days is excessive sensitivity to real or imagined slights, an epidemic of narcissism, and extremely inflexible ideology. So you have people whose ideology (feminism, just one of several) is very reactive. They are always set to go off when stepped on (like land mines), and their bellyaching is amplified in an echo chamber.

Of course it's possible for a man to imagine he is a woman, and visa versa. If they are good actors, he can fake it convincingly. Ditto for women who imagine they are men. I say, "Go right ahead. Imagine what you want, and if you can pull it off, you can act as if your fantasies are real. If you can't, people will just laugh at you. If you are an interesting person (whatever else you are) I'll be polite--I might even want to be your friend. What I won't do is join the show. I'm not going to pretend that you are actually a woman. If you have a penis, testicles, beard, xy chromosomes, and so on--all in working order, you can go to a chop shop and get remodeled, take estrogen, get your breasts enlarged, change your hair, wardrobe, etc. and you may look just like a woman. But to me you are still a man, (and visa versa if you are a woman imagining herself to be a man). — Bitter Crank

This is something I agree with completely and it's an opinion I support.

As I said earlier, I'm not one of the best persons around to talk to people, I prefer to be objective and logical generally which make an 'inhuman cold bitch' to most people, apparently. Its unfortunate but I can't please everyone and act nicely as in lying to them. Saying the truth might be harsh or rude sometimes but its just the truth, a fact. It doesn't care about your feelings and I certainly don't care either if you are trying to dispute it by your feelings.

Look, you can't. It's a biological reality. There aren't 17 genders, It's a fact that you can't change, it's how humanity is built and more than a few species actually. — Terran Imperium

Bloody christ you are arguing from ignorance. Intersex and androginy are real things.

Bloody christ you are arguing from ignorance. Intersex and androginy are real things. — Akanthinos

Those are what you call an exception. People with DSD or hermaphrodite persons does not constitute a third sex. You do not use exceptions as a generalization. It's a genetical deficiency, you do not use an illness as a general truth.

Calling me an ignorant without providing a sufficient argument doesn't sell your point and only undermine it actually. I talked about this earlier if you had bothered to read a three pages long thread. Which is not that long by the way, if you want to participate in a discussion, you should read all the arguments and debate that was provided and discussed earlier. Otherwise, you are making a fool out of yourself.

A woman can behave with a manly attitude, that's what people call a tomboy. Do you know the difference between a tomboy and a transgender man?

I didn't talk about attitudes or personality. I brought up more tangible things: how people dress according to how their society deems appropriate for their gender (colors and style, for example), bodily features that are usually associated with a particular biological sex but aren't exclusive to it, the kind of norms (especially social) we apply to particular genders.

The tomboy comparison isn't sufficient here. I've a transwoman whose a friend of mine who's a music professor. She used to tell me how she knew she was different since she was a kid for various reasons: she preferred to play with "girl toys", she would take every opportunity to dress and act like a woman, and had visceral reactions to depictions of herself in typically male dress and such. She wasn't delusional, she had (and still has, if less so) gender dysphoria. She wasn't delusional, it's just her gender identity does not match what is expected from her sex.

Short of presupposing that she is inherently wrong for being the way she is, I don't see what the argument is here. Perhaps some people go too far in their views about sex and gender. I don't know, I don't personally have a great deal of interest in it. But the core of it seems extremely plausible unless we make arbitrary moral assumptions and completely disregard people's experience despite hat experience playing a crucial role in how they view and act with respect to the gender they have.

I didn't talk about attitudes or personality. I brought up more tangible things: how people dress according to how their society deems appropriate for their gender (colors and style, for example), bodily features that are usually associated with a particular biological sex but aren't exclusive to it, the kind of norms (especially social) we apply to particular genders. — MindForged

Thank you since you provided me an actual argument here. The thing is my point still apply here if I'm wearing Jordans, it doesn't mean I'm telling people I am male! It's just a fashion preference.

The tomboy comparison isn't sufficient here. I've a transwoman whose a friend of mine who's a music professor. She used to tell me how she knew she was different since she was a kid for various reasons: she preferred to play with "girl toys", she would take every opportunity to dress and act like a woman, and had visceral reactions to depictions of herself in typically male dress and such. She wasn't delusional, she had (and still has, if less so) gender dysphoria. She wasn't delusional, it's just her gender identity does not match what is expected from her sex.

Short of presupposing that she is inherently wrong for being the way she is, I don't see what the argument is here. Perhaps some people go too far in their views about sex and gender. I don't know, I don't personally have a great deal of interest in it. But the core of it seems extremely plausible unless we make arbitrary moral assumptions and completely disregard people's experience despite hat experience playing a crucial role in how they view and act with respect to the gender they have. — MindForged

I apologize in advance if I am offending you or your friend in the following words.

I don't think I can change your opinion on whenever transgenderism is delusional or not. I have nothing against your friend as long as he does not go force people to agree with his thinking or his way pronouns should work. I hear often the argument that it is the 'evolution' of language. It is not. That is the imposition of language.

I am aspiring to be a doctor and my view is set upon reality, upon science. To me, transgender people are delusional, not everyone will agree with me, of course, but objectively with the behavior that I saw with my eyes, the numerous ones in social media. They are delusional. I did not meet your friend nor did I talk to him, and I can't make an objective statement on him if I didn't see him. All of the behaviors that feminists and transgender people exhibited pointed to such a decision on my view on them. If he exhibits the same behavior, then he may be delusional, otherwise its just a harmless fantasy.

The thing is my point still apply here if I'm wearing Jordans, it doesn't mean I'm telling people I am male! It's just a fashion preference. — Terran Imperium

Shoes are less contentious. If you were a man and wore dresses the situation would be much different.

Shoes are less contentious. If you were a man and wore dresses the situation would be much different. — MindForged

It is indeed. Its a common double standard in favor of women, unfortunately. Another example is, old women, oiling up a handsome young muscled man is good but old men oiling up a hot and fit young woman is creepy. I noticed that even in my mind it sounded creepy while I thought the former one is not but when you compare them... It's different and it change your perspective, it makes you take a step back and think about it for a second. It actually gives me chills by how societal biases affect my way of thinking on a day to day basis even when I'm considering myself to be an objective and logical person.

But that's another issue on its own that is not related to the main subject here. Not related in any relevant way to transgenderism at least. Maybe to feminism but I noticed that the subject was more focused on transgenderism than feminism, actually.

That's just jumping around the context of my words. — Terran Imperium

and

Same here. Of course, my choice of word might have been poor. Although as I said the context of my words were pretty clear about that. — Terran Imperium

I was just being flippant there. Sorry.

Well you certainly are a crank. ... Where have I heard this song and dance from before? — MindForged

Please note: I wasn't suggesting at all that trans people should be treated badly. What I said was that I didn't want to become part of their performance of what they imagined themselves to be. Other people can do that if they want.

I've known quite a few transsexuals over the last 45 years. Most of them were likable people, some were charming, some were a pain in the neck. They all had an array of talents and abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Some of them I count as friends.

FaceFuck lists(ed) 58 gender options (below) from which to choose. Most of these look kind of redundant to me, but I am sure there are partisans ready to defend to their death the critical difference between being a cis male and a cis man, between gender fluid and gender juice. My growing antipathy to transsexualism as a movement is derived much more from these latter day gender jockeys, who probably don't know their asses from their elbows, than the previous generation of transsexuals who just wanted to be a woman instead of a man.

FuckFace's list
Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis boom bah humbug
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit