There is no activity in the Rods and Cones when Dreaming. Eye movements don't create Visual Scenes. Something at a further stage of the processing seems to be creating the actual Visual Images that we see when we are Dreaming or when we are Awake. — SteveKlinko

It is true that we do not have a proof about the activity of rods and cones in the retinas during the REM. For that, we would need a human subject + fMRI... :)

However, we are running in circles... :) Despite all of the evidence that there is no a totality of visual experiences within the brain -- you are coming back to your hypothesis... :)

Now, give us a proof that the totality of visual experiences is hidden somewhere in the brain... :) But, that's rhetorical... :) I'm sure that you will not find a paper... :)

Alternatively, consider a reverse path of signals from the rest of the brain --- to the retinas during imagination or sleep... :)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11177421
http://edition.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/11/02/brain.imagining.reut/

(Please note that there is no difference between imagined and actually seen.) :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

There is no activity in the Rods and Cones when Dreaming. Eye movements don't create Visual Scenes. Something at a further stage of the processing seems to be creating the actual Visual Images that we see when we are Dreaming or when we are Awake. — SteveKlinko
It is true that we do not have a proof about the activity of rods and cones in the retinas during the REM. For that, we would need a human subject + fMRI... :)

However, we are running in circles... :) Despite all of the evidence that there is no a totality of visual experiences within the brain -- you are coming back to your hypothesis... :)

Now, give us a proof that the totality of visual experiences is hidden somewhere in the brain... :) But, that's rhetorical... :) I'm sure that you will not find a paper... :)

Alternatively, consider a reverse path of signals from the rest of the brain --- to the retinas during imagination or sleep... :)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11177421
http://edition.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/11/02/brain.imagining.reut/

(Please note that there is no difference between imagined and actually seen.) — Damir Ibrisimovic

There is no paper on how Consciousness is produced from the Neural Activity in the Brain. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and the Rods and Cones are specialized Neurons. If your speculation is that the Visual Images that we see are strictly generated by the Retina then the question is how does the Retina generate the Visual Images that we see? That is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.

If your speculation is that the Visual Images that we see are strictly generated by the Retina then the question is how does the Retina generate the Visual Images that we see? — SteveKlinko

While we are awake, the retina does not generate images. It simply contains the totality of visual sensations. Retinal pre-processing turns this totality of visual sensations into abstracts of "what is what" giving us the fast and pretty accurate navigation through the infinity of visual impressions... :)

While dreaming (REM) this is reversed. The rest of the brain generates abstracts of "what is what" sending them to the retinas. And the retinas provides the rest of simulated visual experiences... :)

While we are awake, consumption of hallucinogens (like mescaline, for example) reduces the impact of abstracts of "what is what" resulting in an overwhelming infinity of visual impressions. (See "The Doors of the Perception".) :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

If your speculation is that the Visual Images that we see are strictly generated by the Retina then the question is how does the Retina generate the Visual Images that we see? — SteveKlinko
While we are awake, the retina does not generate images. It simply contains the totality of visual sensations. Retinal pre-processing turns this totality of visual sensations into abstracts of "what is what" giving us the fast and pretty accurate navigation through the infinity of visual impressions... :)

While dreaming (REM) this is reversed. The rest of the brain generates abstracts of "what is what" sending them to the retinas. And the retinas provides the rest of simulated visual experiences... :)

While we are awake, consumption of hallucinogens (like mescaline, for example) reduces the impact of abstracts of "what is what" resulting in an overwhelming infinity of visual impressions. (See "The Doors of the Perception".) — Damir Ibrisimovic

But when I look at a particular scene in front of me How is that Scene Image presented for me to See it? It appears that the scene I am looking at is painted on a kind of Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. All the Colors are painted there and are overlaid on top of the Physical World scene that I am looking at. The painted Image is a very good representation of the Physical World scene. I am looking at a Surrogate for the Physical World scene that is created by my Conscious Mind. Also what is the "I" that is Seeing that screen? These are the Deep Philosophical questions that we need to answer.

But when I look at a particular scene in front of me How is that Scene Image presented for me to See it? It appears that the scene I am looking at is painted on a kind of Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. — SteveKlinko

When awake, visual sensations have many layers... :) The most fundamental is an infinity of visual sensations, but without "what is what". In other words, we are lost, without "what is what" layers... Subsequent layers are "what is whats" - that dull the infinity of visual sensations...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception ... :)

Also what is the "I" that is Seeing that screen? — SteveKlinko

The "I" is a part of "what is what"... However, the roots of identity have been found in plants:
(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050811104308.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23779000 )... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

Damir,

Are you aware this is a philosophy forum? You seem innocent of the philosophical issues.

Are you aware this is a philosophy forum? You seem innocent of the philosophical issues. — bert1

Such as? :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

But when I look at a particular scene in front of me How is that Scene Image presented for me to See it? It appears that the scene I am looking at is painted on a kind of Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. — SteveKlinko
When awake, visual sensations have many layers... :) The most fundamental is an infinity of visual sensations, but without "what is what". In other words, we are lost, without "what is what" layers... Subsequent layers are "what is whats" - that dull the infinity of visual sensations...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception ... :)

Also what is the "I" that is Seeing that screen? — SteveKlinko
The "I" is a part of "what is what"... However, the roots of identity have been found in plants:
(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050811104308.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23779000 )... — Damir Ibrisimovic

Mescaline trips are interesting but they do not shed any insight into the question at hand. Don' t understand what the Pea Pod growth behavior has to do with anything. What does it have to do with Consciousness?

Despite all of the evidence that there is no a totality of visual experiences within the brain -- you are coming back to your hypothesis... :)

Now, give us a proof that the totality of visual experiences is hidden somewhere in the brain... :) — Damir Ibrisimovic

You assert your belief again and again, but you offer no justification, even though you now demand proof of an opposing view. :chin: Where is "all of the evidence" that you refer to?

Where is "all of the evidence" that you refer to? — Pattern-chaser

You are free to use links I provided in the previous comments... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

Mescaline trips are interesting but they do not shed any insight into the question at hand. — SteveKlinko

That's the reason why reading the book I recommended would be useful... :)

Don' t understand what the Pea Pod growth behavior has to do with anything. — SteveKlinko

The difference between self and non-self is a root to what we call identity, In other words, self and non-self distinction evolves into what we call "I"... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

Mescaline trips are interesting but they do not shed any insight into the question at hand. — SteveKlinko
That's the reason why reading the book I recommended would be useful... :)

Don' t understand what the Pea Pod growth behavior has to do with anything. — SteveKlinko
The difference between self and non-self is a root to what we call identity, In other words, self and non-self distinction evolves into what we call "I"... — Damir Ibrisimovic

I read articles summarizing the Book. I know that's not like reading the whole book, but I got a good feel for the book. I did not see from the summary at least how the book was going to solve the Hard Problem. The book just talked about enhanced perceptions and philosophical realizations. Could you possibly give a summary of How the book explains the Hard problem? The Hard Problem is: How does the Neural Activity (using drugs or not using drugs) produce the Conscious experience?

The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of qualia or Husserl's hyle?

There is simply a prior, non physical, phenomenal aspect that no understanding of the physical will ever give rise to: for such an understanding would have to suffice to replace it, which is utterly impossible, and is completely incommensurate with its object, and is bombastic in even a consideration.

This is not said nowadays because people are scared of being called a theist or, even worse, NOT ATHEIST! HOW SCARY!

As if such a statement says anything further!

insanus populi

↪SteveKlinko The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of qualia or Husserl's hyle?

There is simply a prior, non physical, phenomenal aspect that no understanding of the physical will ever give rise to: for such an understanding would have to suffice to replace it, which is utterly impossible, and is completely incommensurate with its object, and is bombastic in even a consideration.

This is not said nowadays because people are scared of being called a theist or, even worse, NOT ATHEIST! HOW SCARY!

As if such a statement says anything further!

insanus populi — Blue Lux

Quite correct. But I still think that the non-Physical will be understood by Science someday if only they would sit back, relax, and think more Deeply about it.

The phenomenologists attempted this... But I am about ready to say that philosophy is over... At least with what I have now at my disposal.

What bothers me so much is this aversion to what cannot be empirically distinguished, such to be defined like an atom can be, or a neural impulse. It is really sad; this pop-atheist, pseudo-philosophical simulacrum disguised as philosophical discourse today. And I'm talking about Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett , and others. Many others. Its just tasteless.

There is visual stuff when you close your eyes. They are called phosphenes. Have you heard of this? I, personally, have a theory about how sleep begins, with regard to phosphenes, and subjectively I have proven it, because it always works.

The Hard Problem is: How does the Neural Activity (using drugs or not using drugs) produce the Conscious experience? — SteveKlinko

Again. Neural activity does not produce conscious experience. But, we are getting back to neuronal activity (not retinal activity) again --- as if we never discussed it. I will, therefore, stop repeating myself... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

The Hard Problem is: How does the Neural Activity (using drugs or not using drugs) produce the Conscious experience? — SteveKlinko
Again. Neural activity does not produce conscious experience. But, we are getting back to neuronal activity (not retinal activity) again --- as if we never discussed it. I will, therefore, stop repeating myself... :) — Damir Ibrisimovic

I may have forgotten to mention that the Rods, Cones, etc. of the Retina are considered to be specialized Neurons. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and so you can say that the external Light impinges directly on the Brain. It's all just Neural Activity. You want to give more importance to the Retina and that's ok and may be true. Neural Activity and the Conscious Visual experience are two different Categories of Phenomena. How does the Neural Activity of the Retina produce a Conscious Visual experience?

↪SteveKlinko There is visual stuff when you close your eyes. They are called phosphenes. Have you heard of this? I, personally, have a theory about how sleep begins, with regard to phosphenes, and subjectively I have proven it, because it always works. — Blue Lux

We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.

To understand this better close your eyes and observe what you See. At first there may be various After Images that represent remnants of what you were looking at, but eventually these fade away. What is left is not totally black. Note that you might have to put your hand over your eyes if you are in a bright place in order to cut off external Light from leaking through your eyelids. Most people will notice a background that has a vague grainy noise almost like the video snow noise that used to appear on old analog TVs. Let's call this Conscious Light Noise (CLN). This noise effect is also called Phosphenes. It is due to random Retinal and Cortical firings. CLN really is the background noise in your Visual detection system. Most people easily perceive that this CLN, and possible After Images, are close to the front of their faces. If you move your head around you will See the CLN, and After Images, move around with your head to keep them in front of your face. If you move your eyes up, down, left, or right, the CLN and After Images will seem to be displaced a little in those directions but will still basically be located in front of your face. It is interesting to note that After Images will always look close even if the scene element that caused the After Image is far away. Now you know where your CLS is located.

When you open your eyes the scene that you are looking at is painted onto your CLS and it is harder to perceive that the Conscious Light making up the image is still close to your face. Your Visual system tries to give you the illusion that there are things that are far away and things that are close. If you look through only one eye the depth illusion is less pronounced. But the Conscious Light that the scene is painted with is actually still located close to your face and is at the same distance as the CLN. The illusion of distance is absolutely necessary for moving around in the World.

It should be mentioned that the things and scenes you See while Dreaming are also painted onto your CLS. The CLS is a general purpose Visual Display Device for all Conscious beings, whether Human or Animal. We walk around all day long looking at our CLSs which are embedded in the front of our faces. We cannot See the CLSs of other people but if we could it would be as if everyone was wearing Virtual Reality goggles. But instead of goggles it would be Conscious Light Screens. We think we are Seeing the external World directly but we (our Conscious Minds) are always just looking (in some Conscious way) at our own CLSs.

You should see the phosphenes when you close your eyes in darkness while your brain is on LSD or psilocin, or any psychedelic substance. Extraordinary colors, patterns, fractals, zooms, geometry... Even colors that you never see otherwise.

I may have forgotten to mention that the Rods, Cones, etc. of the Retina are considered to be specialized Neurons. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and so you can say that the external Light impinges directly on the Brain. — SteveKlinko

Actually - I said that... :)

There are two effects of the retinal activity. The totality of visual experiences and hints and edges that travel through the optical nerves to the rest of the brain... :)

How does the Neural Activity of the Retina produce a Conscious Visual experience? — SteveKlinko

Neural activity does not produce a "Conscious Visual experience"... :) Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience". For example: If we are born blind there would not be "Conscious Visual experience"... :)

When we are born - we are almost blind and need to learn "what is what"... :)

When the "what is what" is diminished (under the influence of a drug, for example) the totality of our visual experiences dominates... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

↪SteveKlinko You should see the phosphenes when you close your eyes in darkness while your brain is on LSD or psilocin, or any psychedelic substance. Extraordinary colors, patterns, fractals, zooms, geometry... Even colors that you never see otherwise. — Blue Lux

Without LSD I can See some things that are more than random noise. For example I can See Vortices where there will be a small circular section in the Phosphenes spiraling around and into a center. This is usually after dozing off for a moment so it is probably partially a Dream experience.

I may have forgotten to mention that the Rods, Cones, etc. of the Retina are considered to be specialized Neurons. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and so you can say that the external Light impinges directly on the Brain. — SteveKlinko
Actually - I said that... :)

There are two effects of the retinal activity. The totality of visual experiences and hints and edges that travel through the optical nerves to the rest of the brain... :)

How does the Neural Activity of the Retina produce a Conscious Visual experience? — SteveKlinko
Neural activity does not produce a "Conscious Visual experience"... :) Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience". For example: If we are born blind there would not be "Conscious Visual experience"... :)

When we are born - we are almost blind and need to learn "what is what"... :)

When the "what is what" is diminished (under the influence of a drug, for example) the totality of our visual experiences dominates... :) — Damir Ibrisimovic

But then the question becomes: How does Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience"? Further, exactly what is that Experience? What is the Thing that is having the Experience? Think about the Conscious experience itself.

exactly! I have seen what you have seen without any mind altering substance as well. But I will remark again on the extraordinary effect the safe psychedelic substances can have on perception and experience, as well as the brain, which already have endogenous hallucinogens and hallucinogenic tendencies that represent certain neural components, neurotransmitters and synaptic receptors whose function and effect are correlated with a fine mechanism of consciousness, feeling, sensation and understanding. But I degress.
These light shows as I call them represent an extraordinary system, display or paradigmatic system of consciousness and organic life. They are amazing and the beauty they show of our own very experiences makes life ever more fascinating.

But then the question becomes: How does Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience"? — SteveKlinko

We are stuck here... :) You are asking for something to "... Produce a Conscious Visual experience"...

The totality of visual experiences is simply there --- without anything to produce it... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

But then the question becomes: How does Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience"? — SteveKlinko
We are stuck here... :) You are asking for something to "... Produce a Conscious Visual experience"...

The totality of visual experiences is simply there --- without anything to produce it... :)

Enjoy the day, — Damir Ibrisimovic

I'm actually perplexed as to how you think that just saying: "The totality of visual experiences is simply there" is any kind of answer to the Hard Problem. Your very statement screams out for further explanation. How is that beautiful Visual Image that you See presented to your Conscious Mind?

↪SteveKlinko exactly! I have seen what you have seen without any mind altering substance as well. But I will remark again on the extraordinary effect the safe psychedelic substances can have on perception and experience, as well as the brain, which already have endogenous hallucinogens and hallucinogenic tendencies that represent certain neural components, neurotransmitters and synaptic receptors whose function and effect are correlated with a fine mechanism of consciousness, feeling, sensation and understanding. But I degress.
These light shows as I call them represent an extraordinary system, display or paradigmatic system of consciousness and organic life. They are amazing and the beauty they show of our own very experiences makes life ever more fascinating. — Blue Lux

I agree it is amazing. It is an amazing Mystery as to How our Conscious Minds present this Light Show to us..

Your very statement screams out for further explanation. — SteveKlinko

Why? :) You started with Consciousness happens - without anything like neuronal activity... :)

Neuronal activity can produce only "what is what" or sketchy images. It simply does not have the capacity to produce/transmit the totality of visual impressions... :)

Enjoy the day, :cool:

You are still saying that the Neural Activity happens and that Explains everything. It is mind boggling to me that you cannot realize the thing that is missing in your explanation. The thing that is missing is the Red experience itself and the 440Hz Tone experience itself. — SteveKlinko

>From my perspective, once the mechanical process is outlined, something is explained. I think we've gone through this cycle of disagreement before, but I get the sense you want or expect something more than an explanation of function. I believe that's all there is, and different conscious experiences just seem so extravagant and profound, that its hard for our minds to except an explanation.