There is no activity in the Rods and Cones when Dreaming. Eye movements don't create Visual Scenes. Something at a further stage of the processing seems to be creating the actual Visual Images that we see when we are Dreaming or when we are Awake. — SteveKlinko
There is no activity in the Rods and Cones when Dreaming. Eye movements don't create Visual Scenes. Something at a further stage of the processing seems to be creating the actual Visual Images that we see when we are Dreaming or when we are Awake. — SteveKlinko
It is true that we do not have a proof about the activity of rods and cones in the retinas during the REM. For that, we would need a human subject + fMRI... :)
However, we are running in circles... :) Despite all of the evidence that there is no a totality of visual experiences within the brain -- you are coming back to your hypothesis... :)
Now, give us a proof that the totality of visual experiences is hidden somewhere in the brain... :) But, that's rhetorical... :) I'm sure that you will not find a paper... :)
Alternatively, consider a reverse path of signals from the rest of the brain --- to the retinas during imagination or sleep... :)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11177421
http://edition.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/11/02/brain.imagining.reut/
(Please note that there is no difference between imagined and actually seen.) — Damir Ibrisimovic
If your speculation is that the Visual Images that we see are strictly generated by the Retina then the question is how does the Retina generate the Visual Images that we see? — SteveKlinko
If your speculation is that the Visual Images that we see are strictly generated by the Retina then the question is how does the Retina generate the Visual Images that we see? — SteveKlinko
While we are awake, the retina does not generate images. It simply contains the totality of visual sensations. Retinal pre-processing turns this totality of visual sensations into abstracts of "what is what" giving us the fast and pretty accurate navigation through the infinity of visual impressions... :)
While dreaming (REM) this is reversed. The rest of the brain generates abstracts of "what is what" sending them to the retinas. And the retinas provides the rest of simulated visual experiences... :)
While we are awake, consumption of hallucinogens (like mescaline, for example) reduces the impact of abstracts of "what is what" resulting in an overwhelming infinity of visual impressions. (See "The Doors of the Perception".) — Damir Ibrisimovic
But when I look at a particular scene in front of me How is that Scene Image presented for me to See it? It appears that the scene I am looking at is painted on a kind of Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. — SteveKlinko
Also what is the "I" that is Seeing that screen? — SteveKlinko
Are you aware this is a philosophy forum? You seem innocent of the philosophical issues. — bert1
But when I look at a particular scene in front of me How is that Scene Image presented for me to See it? It appears that the scene I am looking at is painted on a kind of Screen that is embedded in the front of my face. — SteveKlinko
When awake, visual sensations have many layers... :) The most fundamental is an infinity of visual sensations, but without "what is what". In other words, we are lost, without "what is what" layers... Subsequent layers are "what is whats" - that dull the infinity of visual sensations...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception ... :)
Also what is the "I" that is Seeing that screen? — SteveKlinko
The "I" is a part of "what is what"... However, the roots of identity have been found in plants:
(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050811104308.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23779000 )... — Damir Ibrisimovic
Despite all of the evidence that there is no a totality of visual experiences within the brain -- you are coming back to your hypothesis... :)
Now, give us a proof that the totality of visual experiences is hidden somewhere in the brain... :) — Damir Ibrisimovic
Where is "all of the evidence" that you refer to? — Pattern-chaser
Mescaline trips are interesting but they do not shed any insight into the question at hand. — SteveKlinko
Don' t understand what the Pea Pod growth behavior has to do with anything. — SteveKlinko
I read articles summarizing the Book. I know that's not like reading the whole book, but I got a good feel for the book. I did not see from the summary at least how the book was going to solve the Hard Problem. The book just talked about enhanced perceptions and philosophical realizations. Could you possibly give a summary of How the book explains the Hard problem? The Hard Problem is: How does the Neural Activity (using drugs or not using drugs) produce the Conscious experience?Mescaline trips are interesting but they do not shed any insight into the question at hand. — SteveKlinko
That's the reason why reading the book I recommended would be useful... :)
Don' t understand what the Pea Pod growth behavior has to do with anything. — SteveKlinko
The difference between self and non-self is a root to what we call identity, In other words, self and non-self distinction evolves into what we call "I"... — Damir Ibrisimovic
↪SteveKlinko The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of qualia or Husserl's hyle?
There is simply a prior, non physical, phenomenal aspect that no understanding of the physical will ever give rise to: for such an understanding would have to suffice to replace it, which is utterly impossible, and is completely incommensurate with its object, and is bombastic in even a consideration.
This is not said nowadays because people are scared of being called a theist or, even worse, NOT ATHEIST! HOW SCARY!
As if such a statement says anything further!
insanus populi — Blue Lux
The Hard Problem is: How does the Neural Activity (using drugs or not using drugs) produce the Conscious experience? — SteveKlinko
I may have forgotten to mention that the Rods, Cones, etc. of the Retina are considered to be specialized Neurons. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and so you can say that the external Light impinges directly on the Brain. It's all just Neural Activity. You want to give more importance to the Retina and that's ok and may be true. Neural Activity and the Conscious Visual experience are two different Categories of Phenomena. How does the Neural Activity of the Retina produce a Conscious Visual experience?The Hard Problem is: How does the Neural Activity (using drugs or not using drugs) produce the Conscious experience? — SteveKlinko
Again. Neural activity does not produce conscious experience. But, we are getting back to neuronal activity (not retinal activity) again --- as if we never discussed it. I will, therefore, stop repeating myself... :) — Damir Ibrisimovic
We do not See things in the external World, but rather we Detect things by using internal Conscious processes that we are born with. We all have a personal Conscious Light Screen (CLS) that we use to detect what is happening in the external World. If we try to describe where this CLS is located it seems to be embedded in the front of our faces in some way. The CLS is vaguely horizontally rectangular with ambiguous edges that are hard to locate exactly. The screen seems to just fade into nonexistence at the borders. But wherever you look, that screen is there showing you with Conscious Light what is in the scene you are looking at.↪SteveKlinko There is visual stuff when you close your eyes. They are called phosphenes. Have you heard of this? I, personally, have a theory about how sleep begins, with regard to phosphenes, and subjectively I have proven it, because it always works. — Blue Lux
I may have forgotten to mention that the Rods, Cones, etc. of the Retina are considered to be specialized Neurons. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and so you can say that the external Light impinges directly on the Brain. — SteveKlinko
How does the Neural Activity of the Retina produce a Conscious Visual experience? — SteveKlinko
↪SteveKlinko You should see the phosphenes when you close your eyes in darkness while your brain is on LSD or psilocin, or any psychedelic substance. Extraordinary colors, patterns, fractals, zooms, geometry... Even colors that you never see otherwise. — Blue Lux
But then the question becomes: How does Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience"? Further, exactly what is that Experience? What is the Thing that is having the Experience? Think about the Conscious experience itself.I may have forgotten to mention that the Rods, Cones, etc. of the Retina are considered to be specialized Neurons. The Retina is just an extension of the Brain and so you can say that the external Light impinges directly on the Brain. — SteveKlinko
Actually - I said that... :)
There are two effects of the retinal activity. The totality of visual experiences and hints and edges that travel through the optical nerves to the rest of the brain... :)
How does the Neural Activity of the Retina produce a Conscious Visual experience? — SteveKlinko
Neural activity does not produce a "Conscious Visual experience"... :) Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience". For example: If we are born blind there would not be "Conscious Visual experience"... :)
When we are born - we are almost blind and need to learn "what is what"... :)
When the "what is what" is diminished (under the influence of a drug, for example) the totality of our visual experiences dominates... :) — Damir Ibrisimovic
But then the question becomes: How does Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience"? — SteveKlinko
But then the question becomes: How does Only a combination of the totality of visual experiences and retinal activity (sketchy images) produce a "Conscious Visual experience"? — SteveKlinko
We are stuck here... :) You are asking for something to "... Produce a Conscious Visual experience"...
The totality of visual experiences is simply there --- without anything to produce it... :)
Enjoy the day, — Damir Ibrisimovic
↪SteveKlinko exactly! I have seen what you have seen without any mind altering substance as well. But I will remark again on the extraordinary effect the safe psychedelic substances can have on perception and experience, as well as the brain, which already have endogenous hallucinogens and hallucinogenic tendencies that represent certain neural components, neurotransmitters and synaptic receptors whose function and effect are correlated with a fine mechanism of consciousness, feeling, sensation and understanding. But I degress.
These light shows as I call them represent an extraordinary system, display or paradigmatic system of consciousness and organic life. They are amazing and the beauty they show of our own very experiences makes life ever more fascinating. — Blue Lux
Your very statement screams out for further explanation. — SteveKlinko
You are still saying that the Neural Activity happens and that Explains everything. It is mind boggling to me that you cannot realize the thing that is missing in your explanation. The thing that is missing is the Red experience itself and the 440Hz Tone experience itself. — SteveKlinko
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