In the sense that all empirical evidence is anecdotal, sure.

what's your best argument against suicide? — Wallows

If you have an incurable degenerative disease, or are in untreatable continuous pain, I present no argument. If you are starving, homeless, and helpless, I present no argument. If the world is unbearable and inescapable, I present no argument.

If it is you yourself that is unbearable, then I argue that that suicide is the opposite of an escape; contrariwise, it seals you forever into the unbearable being. This is why it is called the only unforgivable sin - if successful, it removes the possibility of repentance, and thus of redemption. One can change, and this is the gift of life.

If it is you yourself that is unbearable, then I argue that that suicide is the opposite of an escape; contrariwise, it seals you forever into the unbearable being. This is why it is called the only unforgivable sin - if successful, it removes the possibility of repentance, and thus of redemption. One can change, and this is the gift of life. — unenlightened

But, surely you aren't the religious type from my ponderance of you. Or at least this is the hope of the suicidal person, that they become nothing or return to nothingness, the same nothingness that existed before they were born. That's the rationale as far as I can tell of a suicidal person. To become nothing.

There's something comforting about wanting to become nothing. It has no qualities or properties that define it, apart from the lack of properties about it.

What are some thoughts about this property of nothingness that makes people want to become nothing?

I'm sure some suicidal people may as well be religious; but, simply don't care about going to heaven or to purgatory or to hell also. What do you tell the person that doesn't want to go to heaven or hell or to nothingness? Can any argument be made?

Suppose the real you is responsible for your human birth, that you made the decision to go through the process of experiencing life, that you are responsible for everything?

You could argue that everyone is God, that nothing else exists but You/God, that there is only You and nothingness. So You can only be You even if You try not to be either.

You could argue that everyone is God, that nothing else exists but You/God, that there is only You and nothingness. So You can only be You even if You try not to be either. — TWI

And get thrown into a psych ward for running around telling people I am God?

Just kidding. So, what's your best argument against suicide?

That might potentially change things, but as an empirical reality it is not, of course, the case with anyone that they get to make that call. Even if you did have that kind of insight or ability to decide whether to be created or not, then you might still be obligated to carry through with your initial decision. In other words, if you had concerns about the value of life before being put into it, then the rational thing might simply be to opt not to come into being in the first place. Also, it kind of begs the question, since did you create the "real you" or how does that fictional entity come about? If the first possibility, then was there a "really real you" that made the call about the merely "real you"?

...this is the hope of the suicidal person, that they become nothing or return to nothingness, the same nothingness that existed before they were born. — Wallows

Yes, that is the hope. But if I tell you to fuck off, and then kill myself, have I told you to fuck off? Of course I have. The only thing that has changed is that I cannot apologise. the nothingness that existed before I was born can never return.

How about unconscious suicides which lead to death through diseases and accidents which are consequences of negligence, carelessness, bad habits, etc. I think these are easier to address than a person who's already at the point of voluntary suicide after clear deliberation.

If I told you I wanted to commit suicide and you had one response, what would it be? — Wallows

I'd first ask, how old are you?

There's something around the corner that's really cool. If you wait for it, you'll be glad you did. — frank

But, what is that something? I don't think that argument is very convincing if you don't specify what that something is.

"So, what's your best argument against suicide?"

My argument is the fact that in my scenario there is no escape from being the real you, God.

If everyone is God then paradoxically there is no 'everyone', it means 'we' are just one, God trying to see itself from a perspective outside of itself, but as there is no 'outside' it has to imagine there is by pretending to be all things and all people. To really pretend it has to forget who it really is and believe it's really a separate human being, that entails free will on the part of that human. God playing hide and seek with itself and getting into all sorts of adventures, some really dark but when it wakes up it knows it wasn't real, so all actions are useful for it to experience.

There is no one making a call on anyone. I'll quote Alan Watts:

"You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that he isn't really doing this to anyone but himself. Remember too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It's the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them all into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner."

But if I tell you to fuck off, and then kill myself, have I told you to fuck off? — unenlightened

In essence, that seems to be the sentiment of a suicidal. Fuck off to you; the world, my family, my life, all my problems. Again, I am not suicidal, just posted a hypothetical situation here. But, the fuck off is stated in the act of committing suicide.

How about unconscious suicides which lead to death through diseases and accidents which are consequences of negligence, carelessness, bad habits, etc. I think these are easier to address than a person who's already at the point of voluntary suicide after clear deliberation. — BrianW

You mean the unconscious desire to die? I suspect that they can manifest in those ways. But, suicide is such an act that instantiates all those desires into one act.

I'd first ask, how old are you? — Jake

What's the purpose of asking that? Please elaborate.

Just a clarification. I am not thinking about suicide. It's just a hypothetical situation. I hope to gather all the answers to what one thinks about as the best argument against someone contemplating suicide.

Or at least this is the hope of the suicidal person, that they become nothing or return to nothingness, the same nothingness that existed before they were born. That's the rationale as far as I can tell of a suicidal person. To become nothing. — Wallows

You are projecting a purpose where it may not be. Consider changing the focus from one of motivation influenced by a desire to achieve a particular result to just looking at the agency itself. To be the one who acts in a certain way is what fascinates many killers.
So what is happening with a person who is going through this fixation will make one intervention smarter than another but the persuasion is not happening on the level of disqualifying a rationale.
I have had some close encounters with this thing with some family members and close friends and my experience is not a part of learning something like how to draw or shoot arrows. I know less everyday.

What's the purpose of asking that? Please elaborate. — Wallows

I would ask the hypothetical person considering suicide how old they are because life experience is a very relevant qualifier for questions of such scope and scale.

As example, imagine asking a seven year old, "What is love?" The child may be brilliant, but they simply don't have the life experience to do a meaningful analysis of the question. The wisest seven year old would reply...."How the heck would I know what love is, for crying out loud, I'm only seven!" :smile:

For a purely technical matter such as say, computer programming, age wouldn't be relevant, as a higher school could easily be a better programmer than a senior citizen.

You mean the unconscious desire to die? — Wallows

No, I mean people who kill themselves unconsciously through the many channels which are consequences of negligence, carelessness, bad habits, etc, etc. For example, people who develop liver problems through excessive consumption of alcohol and which leads to death. Isn't it suicide because it's self-inflicted.

So what is happening with a person who is going through this fixation will make one intervention smarter than another but the persuasion is not happening on the level of disqualifying a rationale.
I have had some close encounters with this thing with some family members and close friends and my experience is not a part of learning something like how to draw or shoot arrows. I know less everyday. — Valentinus

It's a matter of willpower to get better. The scary thing about depression from what I read is that as a person gets better the motivation to kill oneself rises. I don't know what to call this, some sort of SSRI syndrome where the depression is lifting and someone begins contemplating suicide with the new returning energy. I've never had a suicide in the family, and don't know any people who would want to do it as close friends. My only experience with it is from within my own head.

I think the best advice I could offer a suicidal person is the lesson of learning how to be patient. One of the highest risk factors contributing to suicidal rates is the degree of impulsiveness of a person. If one can endure or cope with the suicidal tendencies, then that's half the hurdle.

There's also another means at addressing depression. It's Ketamine, which is being researched and will soon become standard treatment for depression in the US. I'm quite intrigued by Ketamine and its ability to lift oneself out of depression. Just another good tool in the arsenal of the pill pushes I suppose.

As example, imagine asking a seven year old, "What is love?" The child may be brilliant, but they simply don't have the life experience to do a meaningful analysis of the question. The wisest seven year old would reply...."How the heck would I know what love is, for crying out loud, I'm only seven!" :smile: — Jake

Haha, I wonder how a child would respond to someone asking about suicide? What a daft thought.

No, I mean people who kill themselves unconsciously through the many channels which are consequences of negligence, carelessness, bad habits, etc, etc. For example, people who develop liver problems through excessive consumption of alcohol and which leads to death. Isn't it suicide because it's self-inflicted. — BrianW

I'm still not understanding you here. Are you proposing that someone who unconsciously inflicts self-harm is tantamount to them slowly committing suicide?

In my dealings with depression and some suicidal ideation, what has helped me the most is realizing that emotions and feelings subside. What I have learned is to be patient with the thoughts and not act impulsively on them. Impulsiveness is really the nail in one's coffin. I don't know how one can learn how to be less impulsive or learn patience. It's a trait I suppose.

Any thoughts?

I'm still not understanding you here. Are you proposing that someone who unconsciously inflicts self-harm is tantamount to them slowly committing suicide? — Wallows

Yeah. I mean, most people already know the possible consequences of their bad-habits or careless acts. Also think of drunk drivers who end up dead, it's just as much a suicide.

Yeah. I mean, most people already know the possible consequences of their bad-habits or careless acts. Also think of drunk drivers who end up dead, it's just as much a suicide. — BrianW

I wouldn't go as far and say that self-destructive behaviour is tantamount to wanting to commit suicide. Just my two pennies.

I don't know how one can learn how to be less impulsive or learn patience. It's a trait I suppose.

Any thoughts? — Wallows

I’ve struggled with impulsivity my whole life. I’ve dealt with mental illness my entire adult life. Patience is difficult when one is under a lot of stress. I have found that removing the stressors helps a lot, and where that isn’t possible, meditation helps. However, sometimes people are in very high stress situations that they can see no easy way out of. That’s when they need to find the courage to ask for help. I find that praying as a form of meditation, asking God (or the universe or your inner self if you prefer) for patience has been helpful to me.

I wouldn't go as far and say that self-destructive behaviour is tantamount to wanting to commit suicide. Just my two pennies. — Wallows

Isn't self-destruction the very definition of suicide?