Using naming practices without using descriptive practices... — creativesoul
Using descriptive practices without using naming practices... — creativesoul
We look at this world and see whether X identifies a unique individual in it. But that tells us nothing to do with whether X would pick out a unique individual, no individuals, or multiple individuals, in an alternate world. — andrewk
Santa Claus is mentioned on pages 93 and 97. But it's just a hit-and-run reference. Nothing of any depth is said about what connotations 'Santa Claus' has and how it works given its emptiness.Yes, do you know in which lectures he proceeds to talk about empty names and fictional entities like Santa Claus — Wallows
Kripke goes on from there to try to justify this unfairness (lack of charity, as I pointed out on about page 1), but all he can offer is that descriptivism 'seems to be wrong' and Kripke's approach 'seems to' be 'better'. Seems to whom? To Kripke of course.Haven't I been very unfair to the description theory? Here I have stated it very precisely - more precisely, perhaps, than it has been stated by any of its advocates. So then it's easy to refute. Maybe if I tried to state mine with sufficient precision in the form of six or seven or eight theses, it would also turn out that when you examine the theses one by one, they will all be false. — N&N p93
Conclusion:Naming practices are not necessary for all cases of successful reference.
Conclusion:Descriptive practices are not necessary for all cases of successful reference. — creativesoul
Hmmm... Seems to be equal thus far...
Can either 1.) or 2.) be done by a language user that has never used the other?
In other words, can someone who has never used descriptive practices point and name?
Surely they can. They do!
Can someone who has never used naming practices employ descriptive practices?
Surely they cannot! — creativesoul
Using descriptive practices without using naming practices...
— creativesoul
Do we actually do this?
Yes, we do.
Does it successfully pick out an individual to the exclusion of all others?
Yes. It does.
Can it be done?
It is, therefore... not only can it be done, it already has been done!
Conclusion:Naming practices are not necessary for all cases of successful reference.
There's an 'intuitive' use of the term "necessary" — creativesoul
This is in accordance with what seems to be the usual way to characterise things, which is that ostension is different from DD. But recently I've been wondering whether ostension is just a subcategory of DD.Descriptive practices are not necessary for all cases of successful reference. Can someone who has never used descriptive practices point and name? Yes! Pointing to an individual thing and saying it's name aloud is more than adequate for successful reference. — creativesoul
Yeah, I don't know how to proceed with this factoid in mind. It seems like a glaring example, that is brushed aside, of not being able to specify a referent that obtains to the same "entity" (however you define that metaphysically or ontologically, as Kripke seems to be inclined to state that entities exist in only an empirical manner) in (any) possible world. — Wallows
This is in accordance with what seems to be the usual way to characterise things, which is that ostension is different from DD. But recently I've been wondering whether ostension is just a subcategory of DD. — andrewk
For empty names, yes.
For proper names, no. — Wallows
Could it be that the act of pointing when naming something is a non-verbal way of communicating the words:
. . 'The first object that is intercepted by the line indicated by my finger is named.....' — andrewk
Just think about it. An empty name only has meaning with respect to its descriptive content because there is no referent. — Wallows
Proper names also (not a feature exclusive to empty names only) hold descriptive semantic content. However, their meaning obtains in the actual world, given through their referent. — Wallows
Ok, I guess you can assert that Santa Clause is a plump, elderly man with a white beard who lives in the North Pole and delivers candy, presents, or coal depending on how nice you have been for the past year. All of the "a, who, how's" stand in as the descriptions of the person and what "he" does on Christmas, of giving out presents that time of year. — Wallows
Are you actually claiming that "Santa Claus" has no referent? — creativesoul
I'm asking you to explain to me what is meant by "empty name"... — creativesoul
I'm asking you to given an example.
Is that your example? — creativesoul
Are you actually claiming that "Santa Claus" has no referent?
— creativesoul
Yes. — Wallows
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.