BrianW
736
Brian...what do I have to do to spell this out for you? — Frank Apisa
What's in a name?
A rose by any other name...
a minute ago
Reply
Options — BrianW
Relativist
611
Some people guess mindreading is possible; some guess it is not possible.
Both are guessing.
Gotta wonder why they don't just call it guessing...rather than calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa
As previously discussed. I use the terminology different than you. Note how I worded my belief: "mindreading is probably physically impossible".
My beliefs are not certainties, but they are justified- based on other beliefs. Happy to discuss, if you're willing to discuss in my terms or you can provide a lexicon for yours. — Relativist
BlueBanana
899
↪Frank Apisa
That's similar to stating that I don't have limbs - I have arms and legs, and I don't need to disguise them as anything else by using hypernyms or umbrella terms. — BlueBanana
No it isn't. — Frank Apisa
I never said or intimated that a "belief" has to be certainty.
In fact, I said that in some cases, it is nothing more than blind guessing being disguised.
We can discuss it if you like...but I do not want my position to be distorted. — Frank Apisa
Sorry if I misinterpreted, but bear in mind that the only response you gave to my original post was a tangential comment about my terminology, and your repeat of your position that the word "guess" should be used. That was actually off-topic, and pointless since we've been through this before. If you want to understand my point within my own terminology then ask. If you want to make a case for using your terminology, start a new thread. Otherwise, please stop interjecting your dissatisfaction that everyone doesn't use your preferred terminology.Gotta wonder why they don't just call it guessing...rather than calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa
BlueBanana
900
No it isn't. — Frank Apisa
How so? For every X for which belief is an umbrella term that has been offered, you've responded that you call X not a belief but simply X - which you are free to do, but it doesn't change that X is a belief. Just like I can choose to call arms arms instead of limbs, but nevertheless, arms are limbs. — BlueBanana
That's similar to stating that I don't have limbs - I have arms and legs, and I don't need to disguise them as anything else by using hypernyms or umbrella terms. — BlueBanana
BrianW
737
↪Frank Apisa
Definition of belief (Merriam-Webster)
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
2 : something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed.
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.
This are the common meanings expressed by term 'belief' and also what I'm referring to. So, either none of them refers to what you understand by belief implying that you have you own reference other than these, in which case, we are not talking about the same thing. — BrianW
A person saying, "I believe X"...is a person doing "believing."
A person saying, "It is my blind guess that X" is a person doing "blind guessing.
If you do not understand that...not much I can do to help you.
I do not do "believing."
I really do not understand why this is causing some of you so much trouble? — Frank Apisa
Relativist
612
I never said or intimated that a "belief" has to be certainty.
In fact, I said that in some cases, it is nothing more than blind guessing being disguised.
We can discuss it if you like...but I do not want my position to be distorted. — Frank Apisa
Gotta wonder why they don't just call it guessing...rather than calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa
Sorry if I misinterpreted, but bear in mind that the only response you gave to my original post was a tangential comment about my terminology, and your repeat of your position that the word "guess" should be used. That was actually off-topic, and pointless since we've been through this before. If you want to understand my point within my own terminology then ask. If you want to make a case for using your terminology, start a new thread. Otherwise, please stop interjecting your dissatisfaction that everyone doesn't use your preferred terminology. — Relativist
BrianW
738
A person saying, "I believe X"...is a person doing "believing."
A person saying, "It is my blind guess that X" is a person doing "blind guessing.
If you do not understand that...not much I can do to help you.
I do not do "believing."
I really do not understand why this is causing some of you so much trouble? — Frank Apisa
First, I'm not troubled, I find it quite interesting to see where this particular rabbit hole leads to. — BrianW
Secondly, a person doing "X" and calling it "Y" is very suspicious, hence my interest.
BlueBanana
901
↪Frank Apisa
I remember what I said, and I replied to your reply with "How so", followed by expanding on my first comment. — BlueBanana
What is your fucking problem?
I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology — Frank Apisa
If a person is making a blind guess that there are no gods...and says "I believe there are no gods" rather than "It is my blind guess that there are no gods"...ya gotta wonder why they are doing it. — Frank Apisa
BlueBanana
902
↪Frank Apisa
This I have said so far: you have given and been given examples of things that fall under the umbrella term of belief (blind guess, acceptance of experience, etc.) and you refuse to use the umbrella term (seemingly claiming that apparently words referring to concepts are mutually exclusive, as if calling a guess a belief implies it's not a guess).
Furthermore, your choice of words does not reflect reality - if the word belief means (among other things) a guess, then guesses are beliefs regardless of whether one chooses to call them beliefs.
That's where I'm going and where I've gotten, if you claim it requires expanding tell me how so. "No it isn't" isn't a valid rebuttal of that. — BlueBanana
BrianW
739
If a person is making a blind guess that there are no gods...and says "I believe there are no gods" rather than "It is my blind guess that there are no gods"...ya gotta wonder why they are doing it. — Frank Apisa
This is semantics. It's about the mode of expression instead of implied meaning. Also, the blind guess is still predicated by the law of "what goes in, is what comes out", input=output. This means the mind can only give an outcome based on the corresponding inputs. A sub-conscious process of mind is no less valid or meaningful than the conscious processes. For example, a person may choose to believe/disbelieve in god(s) for no other reason than they made a choice having been given that opportunity (no matter the name the process is designated by), and it would still be valid, meaningful and within his/her purview since he/she has such capabilities. I'm not arguing about the quality in how belief is achieved (low/high quality 'stuff' is still 'stuff'), I'm investigating what belief is and why people choose one instead of others. — BrianW
I do not do believing.
I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that.
But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that. — Frank Apisa
If you cannot accept it...that is a problem you must deal with. — Frank Apisa
BlueBanana
903
I do not do believing.
I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that.
But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
"I won't die, I will just cease living. Thus, I'm immortal." — BlueBanana
i agree with this. People don't like to be told they are wrong. I certainly don't like to be told i'm wrong. — christian2017
BrianW
740
...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
So you say. — BrianW
I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that. — Frank Apisa
which are 'obviously worlds apart from the processes of belief... hmm, very curious :chin:
If you cannot accept it...that is a problem you must deal with. — Frank Apisa
It certainly seems so.
Well, I shall question no longer. I accept.
What is your fucking problem?
I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology. — Frank Apisa
But "believe" (the disguise word for guess) does cause difficulties. — Frank Apisa
...it matters, even if there are people too immature and ignorant to realize it. — Frank Apisa
Isaac
672
What is your fucking problem?
I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology. — Frank Apisa
But "believe" (the disguise word for guess) does cause difficulties. — Frank Apisa
...it matters, even if there are people too immature and ignorant to realize it. — Frank Apisa — Isaac
I don't think they are. To me...when a person says, "I believe (in) god" I think they are actually saying, "My guess is there is a god." When a person says, "I believe there are no gods" I think they are actually saying, "It is my guess there are no gods."
I do NOT see them as worlds apart. I do not use the "believe" form...because I see it as an attempt to disguise. — Frank Apisa
leo
248
I don't think they are. To me...when a person says, "I believe (in) god" I think they are actually saying, "My guess is there is a god." When a person says, "I believe there are no gods" I think they are actually saying, "It is my guess there are no gods."
I do NOT see them as worlds apart. I do not use the "believe" form...because I see it as an attempt to disguise. — Frank Apisa
You seem to have some deep-seated issues with the concept of believing.
You keep referring to it in the context of believing in a god or believing there is no god, you don't like people who say they believe in a god, presumably because they have caused you some suffering in some way? You don't want them to accept something as real if you don't have evidence of it and they can't show you evidence of it? — leo
Belief is a word used to refer to various states of mind, but it doesn't reduce to a guess. When people say they believe there is a god they think and act as if there is a god, which is not the same as simply guessing. Sometimes they even see god. — Leo
You say you do not do what these people do, but you do, you just don't say it, and maybe you also don't realize it. — Leo
Say a friend of yours come visit you, and when you're with that friend you chat and have fun and let your guard down. Now it is not impossible that this person who has come to visit you is not your friend, but his twin he never told you about, or a clone, and that this person has come to hurt you. And yet you don't consider the possibility, you think and act as if this person has good intentions towards you, and that state of mind we call a belief, in this case a false belief. Now you can choose to not use that word, but that's the word we usually use.
Ahhh...practicing to be a psychologist by doing cyber-analysis. — Frank Apisa
I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa
So...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
That is why I say I do not do "believing"...because I don't. — Frank Apisa
I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
I am not doing "believing." — Frank Apisa
Do you have a problem with that? — Frank Apisa
What is your fucking problem? — Frank Apisa
When a person says, "I believe there is a god"...all they are doing is saying, "It is my blind guess that there is at least one god in the REALITY"...but they are pretending they are saying something else. They are disguising the fact that they are making a blind guess by calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa
Did you have help constructing that abomination of a sentence...or did you do it on your own, perhaps while under the influence? — Frank Apisa
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