BrianW
736

Brian...what do I have to do to spell this out for you? — Frank Apisa


What's in a name?
A rose by any other name...
a minute ago
Reply
Options — BrianW

If you want to call a rose a rose...do so. It is what I would do.

If you want to make a blind guess and call it a "belief"...do so. You have a right to do that.

I prefer not to. I prefer to call my guesses...guesses. In fact, I no longer use the expression, "I believe..." anything...just to stay consistent.

That is why I say I do not do "believing"...because I don't.

Do you have a problem with that?

Relativist
611

Some people guess mindreading is possible; some guess it is not possible.

Both are guessing.

Gotta wonder why they don't just call it guessing...rather than calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa

As previously discussed. I use the terminology different than you. Note how I worded my belief: "mindreading is probably physically impossible".

My beliefs are not certainties, but they are justified- based on other beliefs. Happy to discuss, if you're willing to discuss in my terms or you can provide a lexicon for yours. — Relativist

I never said or intimated that a "belief" has to be certainty.

In fact, I said that in some cases, it is nothing more than blind guessing being disguised.

We can discuss it if you like...but I do not want my position to be distorted.

BlueBanana
899
↪Frank Apisa
That's similar to stating that I don't have limbs - I have arms and legs, and I don't need to disguise them as anything else by using hypernyms or umbrella terms. — BlueBanana

No it isn't.

No it isn't. — Frank Apisa

How so? For every X for which belief is an umbrella term that has been offered, you've responded that you call X not a belief but simply X - which you are free to do, but it doesn't change that X is a belief. Just like I can choose to call arms arms instead of limbs, but nevertheless, arms are limbs.

Definition of belief (Merriam-Webster)
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
2 : something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed.
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.

This are the common meanings expressed by term 'belief' and also what I'm referring to. So, either none of them refers to what you understand by belief implying that you have you own reference other than these, in which case, we are not talking about the same thing.

I never said or intimated that a "belief" has to be certainty.

In fact, I said that in some cases, it is nothing more than blind guessing being disguised.

We can discuss it if you like...but I do not want my position to be distorted. — Frank Apisa

Gotta wonder why they don't just call it guessing...rather than calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa

Sorry if I misinterpreted, but bear in mind that the only response you gave to my original post was a tangential comment about my terminology, and your repeat of your position that the word "guess" should be used. That was actually off-topic, and pointless since we've been through this before. If you want to understand my point within my own terminology then ask. If you want to make a case for using your terminology, start a new thread. Otherwise, please stop interjecting your dissatisfaction that everyone doesn't use your preferred terminology.

BlueBanana
900

No it isn't. — Frank Apisa


How so? For every X for which belief is an umbrella term that has been offered, you've responded that you call X not a belief but simply X - which you are free to do, but it doesn't change that X is a belief. Just like I can choose to call arms arms instead of limbs, but nevertheless, arms are limbs. — BlueBanana

You originally said:

That's similar to stating that I don't have limbs - I have arms and legs, and I don't need to disguise them as anything else by using hypernyms or umbrella terms. — BlueBanana

I'd saying, NO it isn't.

BrianW
737
↪Frank Apisa


Definition of belief (Merriam-Webster)
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
2 : something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed.
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence.

This are the common meanings expressed by term 'belief' and also what I'm referring to. So, either none of them refers to what you understand by belief implying that you have you own reference other than these, in which case, we are not talking about the same thing. — BrianW

A person saying, "I believe X"...is a person doing "believing."

A person saying, "It is my blind guess that X" is a person doing "blind guessing.

If you do not understand that...not much I can do to help you.

I do not do "believing."

I really do not understand why this is causing some of you so much trouble?

A person saying, "I believe X"...is a person doing "believing."

A person saying, "It is my blind guess that X" is a person doing "blind guessing.

If you do not understand that...not much I can do to help you.

I do not do "believing."

I really do not understand why this is causing some of you so much trouble? — Frank Apisa

First, I'm not troubled, I find it quite interesting to see where this particular rabbit hole leads to.
Secondly, a person doing "X" and calling it "Y" is very suspicious, hence my interest.

Relativist
612

I never said or intimated that a "belief" has to be certainty.

In fact, I said that in some cases, it is nothing more than blind guessing being disguised.

We can discuss it if you like...but I do not want my position to be distorted. — Frank Apisa


Gotta wonder why they don't just call it guessing...rather than calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa

Sorry if I misinterpreted, but bear in mind that the only response you gave to my original post was a tangential comment about my terminology, and your repeat of your position that the word "guess" should be used. That was actually off-topic, and pointless since we've been through this before. If you want to understand my point within my own terminology then ask. If you want to make a case for using your terminology, start a new thread. Otherwise, please stop interjecting your dissatisfaction that everyone doesn't use your preferred terminology. — Relativist

What is your fucking problem?

I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology. In fact, I expressedly said it was okay with me...but that I did not do it.

You seem to be the one with a problem with my using what I want to use.

You made a post saying something to which I made an appropriate response.

If you don't like it...don't read it.

I remember what I said, and I replied to your reply with "How so", followed by expanding on my first comment.

BrianW
738

A person saying, "I believe X"...is a person doing "believing."

A person saying, "It is my blind guess that X" is a person doing "blind guessing.

If you do not understand that...not much I can do to help you.

I do not do "believing."

I really do not understand why this is causing some of you so much trouble? — Frank Apisa


First, I'm not troubled, I find it quite interesting to see where this particular rabbit hole leads to. — BrianW

No rabbit hole. Interesting topic...not a rabbit hole.

Secondly, a person doing "X" and calling it "Y" is very suspicious, hence my interest.

Precisely.

That, in essence, is my point.

If a person is making a blind guess that there are no gods...and says "I believe there are no gods" rather than "It is my blind guess that there are no gods"...ya gotta wonder why they are doing it.

Or, if a person is making a blind guess that there is at least one god...and says, "I believe (in) God" rather than "It is my blind guess that there is at least one god"...ya gotta wonder why.

That is my point.

Thank you for making it again.

BlueBanana
901
↪Frank Apisa
I remember what I said, and I replied to your reply with "How so", followed by expanding on my first comment. — BlueBanana

Keep expanding. You haven't gotten wherever you are going yet.

What is your fucking problem?

I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology — Frank Apisa

Then why bring it up at all? As to what my problem is: I don't like getting trolled. To avoid a discussion on the semantics of "troll", read this: Internet Troll. FYI, I've been called on this myself, in other forums. Accept that it is a perception even if it was not your intent.

You post a lot of things I agree with, so I don't want to get on bad terms with you. Let's just move on. I'm not going to respond to you again in this thread, nor to future comments you make about semantics unless that is the topic of the thread.

This I have said so far: you have given and been given examples of things that fall under the umbrella term of belief (blind guess, acceptance of experience, etc.) and you refuse to use the umbrella term (seemingly claiming that apparently words referring to concepts are mutually exclusive, as if calling a guess a belief implies it's not a guess).

Furthermore, your choice of words does not reflect reality - if the word belief means (among other things) a guess, then guesses are beliefs regardless of whether one chooses to call them beliefs.

That's where I'm going and where I've gotten, if you claim it requires expanding tell me how so. "No it isn't" isn't a valid rebuttal of that.

If a person is making a blind guess that there are no gods...and says "I believe there are no gods" rather than "It is my blind guess that there are no gods"...ya gotta wonder why they are doing it. — Frank Apisa

This is a play at semantics. It's about the mode of expression instead of implied meaning. Also, the blind guess is still predicated by the law of "what goes in, is what comes out", input=output. This means the mind can only give an outcome based on the corresponding inputs. A sub-conscious process of mind is no less valid or meaningful than the conscious processes. For example, a person may choose to believe/disbelieve in god(s) for no other reason than they made a choice having been given that opportunity (no matter the name the process is designated by), and it would still be valid, meaningful and within his/her purview since he/she has such capabilities. I'm not arguing about the quality in how belief is achieved (low/high quality 'stuff' is still 'stuff'), I'm investigating what belief is and why people choose one instead of others.

BlueBanana
902
↪Frank Apisa

This I have said so far: you have given and been given examples of things that fall under the umbrella term of belief (blind guess, acceptance of experience, etc.) and you refuse to use the umbrella term (seemingly claiming that apparently words referring to concepts are mutually exclusive, as if calling a guess a belief implies it's not a guess).

Furthermore, your choice of words does not reflect reality - if the word belief means (among other things) a guess, then guesses are beliefs regardless of whether one chooses to call them beliefs.

That's where I'm going and where I've gotten, if you claim it requires expanding tell me how so. "No it isn't" isn't a valid rebuttal of that. — BlueBanana

Banana...I do not EVER say "I believe...ANYTHING."

I do not do believing.

I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that.

But I do not do "believing."

If that troubles you...that is your problem.

BrianW
739

If a person is making a blind guess that there are no gods...and says "I believe there are no gods" rather than "It is my blind guess that there are no gods"...ya gotta wonder why they are doing it. — Frank Apisa


This is semantics. It's about the mode of expression instead of implied meaning. Also, the blind guess is still predicated by the law of "what goes in, is what comes out", input=output. This means the mind can only give an outcome based on the corresponding inputs. A sub-conscious process of mind is no less valid or meaningful than the conscious processes. For example, a person may choose to believe/disbelieve in god(s) for no other reason than they made a choice having been given that opportunity (no matter the name the process is designated by), and it would still be valid, meaningful and within his/her purview since he/she has such capabilities. I'm not arguing about the quality in how belief is achieved (low/high quality 'stuff' is still 'stuff'), I'm investigating what belief is and why people choose one instead of others. — BrianW

Brian...

...I do not do believing.

I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that.

But I do not do "believing."

If that troubles you...that is your problem.

I have explained that as best I can.

If you cannot accept it...that is a problem you must deal with.

Suppose the title of this thread used "guess" rather than "believe."

It would read:

We Don't Want To GUESS - Because, If We GUESS, Then...

Now what in the hell would that be about.

If you want to guess on something you cannot know...there is nothing wrong with making a guess.

Why would it cause the kind of personal conflict suggested or implied in the title?

It wouldn't.

But "believe" (the disguise word for guess) does cause difficulties.

Think about that.

i agree with this. People don't like to be told they are wrong. I certainly don't like to be told i'm wrong.

I do not do believing.

I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that.

But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

"I won't die, I will just cease living. Thus, I'm immortal."

...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

So you say.

I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that. — Frank Apisa

which are 'obviously' worlds apart from the processes of belief... hmm, very curious :chin:

If you cannot accept it...that is a problem you must deal with. — Frank Apisa

It certainly seems so.

Well, I shall question no longer. I accept.

BlueBanana
903

I do not do believing.

I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that.

But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa


"I won't die, I will just cease living. Thus, I'm immortal." — BlueBanana

No. If you cease living, you are not immortal. That was an even worse analogy than the other nonsense.

Calm down. Stop being so bothered by the fact that I do not want to disguise my guesses by calling them "beliefs."

If I do not use "believe"...I am not doing "believing."

In a discussion about the nature of the REALITY of existence...

...it matters, even if there are people too immature and ignorant to realize it.

i agree with this. People don't like to be told they are wrong. I certainly don't like to be told i'm wrong. — christian2017

True enough. Though quite surprising when it's just about a philosophical argument.

BrianW
740

...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa


So you say. — BrianW

I do say that.

I do guessing and estimating and supposing and things like that. — Frank Apisa


which are 'obviously worlds apart from the processes of belief... hmm, very curious :chin:

I don't think they are. To me...when a person says, "I believe (in) god" I think they are actually saying, "My guess is there is a god." When a person says, "I believe there are no gods" I think they are actually saying, "It is my guess there are no gods."

I do NOT see them as worlds apart. I do not use the "believe" form...because I see it as an attempt to disguise.

You seem to have a problem with that.

Why not talk about the problem you have with it?

If you cannot accept it...that is a problem you must deal with. — Frank Apisa


It certainly seems so.

Well, I shall question no longer. I accept.

Good.

What is your fucking problem?

I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology. — Frank Apisa

But "believe" (the disguise word for guess) does cause difficulties. — Frank Apisa

...it matters, even if there are people too immature and ignorant to realize it. — Frank Apisa

Isaac
672

What is your fucking problem?

I have never expressed dissatisfaction with people who use other terminology. — Frank Apisa



But "believe" (the disguise word for guess) does cause difficulties. — Frank Apisa


...it matters, even if there are people too immature and ignorant to realize it. — Frank Apisa — Isaac

Do you have a point?

IF a person wants to use "believe" rather than "blindly guess"...it is fine with me. One has the right to do that.

It is my opinion that disguising a blind guess...can cause difficulties (often DOES cause difficulties.)

And if there are people too immature or too ignorant to realize those things...IT STILL MATTERS.

We can discuss it.

I am attempting to do so right here...in the context of Brian's OP.

But apparently I am not discussing it the way Brian wants me to.

I don't think they are. To me...when a person says, "I believe (in) god" I think they are actually saying, "My guess is there is a god." When a person says, "I believe there are no gods" I think they are actually saying, "It is my guess there are no gods."

I do NOT see them as worlds apart. I do not use the "believe" form...because I see it as an attempt to disguise. — Frank Apisa

You seem to have some deep-seated issues with the concept of believing.

You keep referring to it in the context of believing in a god or believing there is no god, you don't like people who say they believe in a god, presumably because they have caused you some suffering in some way? You don't want them to accept something as real if you don't have evidence of it and they can't show you evidence of it?

Belief is a word used to refer to various states of mind, but it doesn't reduce to a guess. When people say they believe there is a god they think and act as if there is a god, which is not the same as simply guessing. Sometimes they even see god.

You say you do not do what these people do, but you do, you just don't say it, and maybe you also don't realize it. Say a friend of yours comes visit you, and when you're with that friend you chat and have fun and let your guard down. Now it is not impossible that this person who has come to visit you is not your friend, but his twin he never told you about, or a clone, and that this person has come to hurt you. And yet you don't consider the possibility, you think and act as if this person has good intentions towards you, and that state of mind we call a belief. Now you can choose to not use that word, but that's the word we usually use.

leo
248

I don't think they are. To me...when a person says, "I believe (in) god" I think they are actually saying, "My guess is there is a god." When a person says, "I believe there are no gods" I think they are actually saying, "It is my guess there are no gods."

I do NOT see them as worlds apart. I do not use the "believe" form...because I see it as an attempt to disguise. — Frank Apisa


You seem to have some deep-seated issues with the concept of believing.

You keep referring to it in the context of believing in a god or believing there is no god, you don't like people who say they believe in a god, presumably because they have caused you some suffering in some way? You don't want them to accept something as real if you don't have evidence of it and they can't show you evidence of it? — leo

Ahhh...practicing to be a psychologist by doing cyber-analysis.

I see.

Don't give up your day job, Leo!

Belief is a word used to refer to various states of mind, but it doesn't reduce to a guess. When people say they believe there is a god they think and act as if there is a god, which is not the same as simply guessing. Sometimes they even see god. — Leo

When a person says, "I believe there is a god"...all they are doing is saying, "It is my blind guess that there is at least one god in the REALITY"...but they are pretending they are saying something else. They are disguising the fact that they are making a blind guess by calling it a "belief."

Same thing goes when a person says, "I believe there are no gods."

You say you do not do what these people do, but you do, you just don't say it, and maybe you also don't realize it. — Leo

Did you have help constructing that abomination of a sentence...or did you do it on your own, perhaps while under the influence?

In any case, of course I do what others do. I take a dump in the morning before going to the golf course...and during the day I will make calculations, guesses, suppositions and the like. BUT I will call my calculations, guesses and suppositions...calculations, guesses, and suppositions. I will not call those things "beliefs." No need to disguise something like that.

Say a friend of yours come visit you, and when you're with that friend you chat and have fun and let your guard down. Now it is not impossible that this person who has come to visit you is not your friend, but his twin he never told you about, or a clone, and that this person has come to hurt you. And yet you don't consider the possibility, you think and act as if this person has good intentions towards you, and that state of mind we call a belief, in this case a false belief. Now you can choose to not use that word, but that's the word we usually use.

I would choose not to use that word...and I do not much give a shit what word you, or anyone else, would use. I do not do "believing."

Anyway...cyber-friend to cyber-friend, Leo, I sincerely meant what I said earlier. Do not give up your day job.

Ahhh...practicing to be a psychologist by doing cyber-analysis. — Frank Apisa

Actually for now I'm guessing that you have some issues related to the concept of believing, that's not meant to be an attack that's an hypothesis as to why you react the way you do, and if you consider it seriously and do some introspection that might help you. But if you keep reacting like that this hypothesis might turn into a belief.

I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa

So...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

That is why I say I do not do "believing"...because I don't. — Frank Apisa

I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa

But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa

I am not doing "believing." — Frank Apisa

Do you have a problem with that? — Frank Apisa

What is your fucking problem? — Frank Apisa

There are so many things to focus on, yet you seem most focused on making other people know and accept that you "do not do believing". I have seen you do that on at least one other thread. When people disagree with you, you respond with passive-aggressiveness, or you attack them. It doesn't take a psychologist to notice that you fixate on it and you react very strongly to it. When people stop replying to you you consider you have them convinced, but really you're just driving them away.

When a person says, "I believe there is a god"...all they are doing is saying, "It is my blind guess that there is at least one god in the REALITY"...but they are pretending they are saying something else. They are disguising the fact that they are making a blind guess by calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa

It is not "all they are doing", because they also think and act as if this god exists, sometimes they feel him, they expect to meet him at some point, all that they wouldn't do if they were just blindly guessing.

Did you have help constructing that abomination of a sentence...or did you do it on your own, perhaps while under the influence? — Frank Apisa

In terms that you can understand, YOU DO BELIEVING, even if you don't say it, and even if you don't realize it.

I gave an example, in that example you hold a belief, the way belief is defined, so by the definition of belief you do believing. Now you keep saying that you do not do believing, but that's not in accordance with the definition of belief, because by that definition you do believing.