If facts are true statements and there are no objective values then saying that there are no objective values is a fact. If we ought believe true statements, then we ought not believe the above quote.
— creativesoul
The argument, rephrased a little, contends that there must be objective values if there are facts. If this is the case then it’s not actually possible for “there are no objective values” to be a fact. — AJJ
Actually the word “fact” doesn’t even mean anything here. It means “state of affairs”, — AJJ
But it's not the case. "There are no objective values" is true. — creativesoul
Whether or not there are objective values is what's in contention. That is what's at issue. You're assuming what's at issue in the argument you're offering. I've merely done the same. — creativesoul
All statements are existentially dependent upon a subject. Some statements are true. All truth value is existentially dependent upon a subject. There is no objective truth value. — creativesoul
Come on now, it’s not “being believed” that is necessary, it’s that they ought to be believed. — AJJ
If there are no objective values then there are no facts ( — AJJ
Facts don’t depend on whether or not we believe them — AJJ
What’s more accurately been in contention is whether we ought to believe facts. — AJJ
Come on now, when you or Clark say:
If there are no objective values then there are no facts (
— AJJ
that makes facts contingent upon belief. You may want to revise his/your claim but either make it clear that you are revising it, or stick with what was said and defend it. You already backed away from defending it on page one: — Fooloso4
Facts don’t depend on whether or not we believe them
— AJJ
And so, if facts do not depend on whether or not we believe them then how can it be that if there are no objective values then there are no facts? — Fooloso4
If facts are true statements, then whether or not we ought believe them has nothing to do with 'objective values'. We can know what sorts of things can be true and what makes them so. We can know how irrevocably important it is to form, have, and/or hold true belief. We can know that and also know that there is no such thing as 'objective value' aside from being an imaginary construct. It points to nothing but linguistic conception. — creativesoul
If facts are true statements, then whether or not we ought believe them has nothing to do with 'objective values'. We can know what sorts of things can be true and what makes them so. We can know how irrevocably important it is to form, have, and/or hold true belief. We can know that and also know that there is no such thing as 'objective value' aside from being an imaginary construct. It points to nothing but linguistic conception.
— creativesoul
Urgh. I don’t care about anyone’s personal credo. — AJJ
No it bloody doesn’t mate. It means, as you keeping forcing me to say, that they ought to be believed. — AJJ
If there is some third option that demonstrates that accepting facts is an objective value you have not presented it, even if you have unflaggingly repeated it. Neither logic nor practical consequences are objective values. — Fooloso4
know it is true that I should help you when you’re having a heart attack, therefore I help you. Like I’ve said, goodness and truth - or how we perceive them - are the basis for our actions. — AJJ
Again, you’re just repeating what you think without considering what I’m saying. — AJJ
But whatever. I’d like to ask this important question again: Where does our inspiration to be moral come from, if not from our understanding of what is moral? — AJJ
I would actually be interested in an example of a lie that leads to good. — AJJ
The Nazis are at your doorstep. They ask...
Are there any Jews in your attic? There are. — creativesoul
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