Is Judith Butler "Ms." Butler? I think that you should refer to em as Mx. Butler. Granted, I am just using the Spivak pronouns as I don't know what Judith Butler prefers. — thewonder

I actually don't care what she prefers unless I'm given something I consider a good reason to care. ;-)

Au contraire, mon ami! Judith Butler is the author of Gender Trobule, and I would bet that ey would want for you to refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.

Au contraire, mon ami! Judith Butler is the author of Gender Trobule, and I would bet that ey would want for you to refer to em by eir chosen pronouns. — thewonder

I don't care either. I don't just adopt silly linguistic inventions on demand.

Judith Butler is the author of Gender Trobule, and I would bet that ey would want for you to refer to em by eir chosen pronouns. — thewonder

Sure, but that doesn't impact whether I care. I might call her Lurch, even.

You can't always get what you want.

Well, if you want to be really lazy, you can just substitute "they" or "them" for nearly everything. That's what the queer community around here does.


I'm just saying that I think that you should care because Gender Trouble is like the seminal work on contemporary Queer Theory.

I agree with you. If Terrapin is a man by gender than I will call him “he”. If Judith is gender fluid then I will call them “they” if that’s what they prefer.

Thanks Noah Te Stroete. My guess would be that Judith Butler identifies as she/gender-neutral pronoun, and, so, @Terrapin Station might get away with it, but were they present, I feel like ey might correct him.

I'm just saying that I think that you should care because Gender Trouble is like the seminal work on contemporary Queer Theory. — thewonder

I have no problem with however anyone wants to be, whatever consensual choices they want to make etc.--I'm very much a minarchist, laissez-faire libertarian in that sense, but I don't agree with a lot of the sort of LitCritty humanities theorizing that goes on. I think a lot of it is garbage philosophically. Of course, I feel that way about a lot of philosophy in general, especially LitCritty, continental, PoMo, etc. stuff. (But not just that--I think there's a lot of garbage analytic philosophy, too).

I feel like ey might correct him. — thewonder

Not for long, because they'd not enjoy the debate they'd get into about it.

If no one practices getting the pronouns correct then they will never become easy to use colloquially. Judith Butler may be a lesbian, but ey is not a lesbian who identifies as having a binary gender. You are correct that this is not terribly relevent, and, so, Professor Butler is probably fine.

It's a little bit nitpicky and a little too difficult to get a decent handle on, but you really should use the chosen pronouns. It's sort of like how in the 50s, when you didn't know the gender of the subject of a sentence you would just have to assume that he or she was male. It took kind of a while to alter the language so that people would say "he or she" etc. The gender-neutral pronouns are kind of the same way. If the person does not identify as being male or female, then you should refer to em by eir chosen pronouns.

Alas, though, this is off-topic.

It's a little bit nitpicky and a little too difficult to get a decent handle on, but you really should use the chosen pronouns. It's sort of like how in the 50s, when you didn't know the gender of the subject of a sentence you would just have to assume that he or she was male. It took kind of a while to alter the language so that people would say "he or she" etc. The gender-neutral pronouns are kind of the same way. If the person does not identify as being male or female, then you should refer to em by eir chosen pronouns. — thewonder

You should do this because?

Well, if you want to be really lazy, you can just substitute "they" or "them" for nearly everything. That's what the queer community around here does. — thewonder

No thanks. I find that ridiculous. I'll just talk normally.

Because ey don't identify as being male or female, and, so, it is not correct to subjectify them as either. By doing so, you have referred to another subject who is not present.

I will also begin demanding that you refer to me by the pronoun "xe" if you don't just decide to agree with me.

I will also begin demanding that you refer to me by the pronoun "xe" if you don't just decide to agree with me. — thewonder

Wait, are you serious? Because it sounds almost trollish, but then I remind myself that some people out there genuinely would say such things. That's very much part of the Looney Left, and I would disassociate myself with that group.

But, it's not normal, though.

It used to be that when you were discussing something, let's say a person driving a car, that you would assume that the gender of the person, if you didn't know it, was male.

So, "A person was driving a car. He turned left."

This was considered to be grammatically correct, but it's totally absurd. You don't know that the gender of the person driving the car is male. After a long debate with a lot of Feminists, grammarians changed this.

It became: "A person was driving a car. He or she turned left."

This is better, but it still assumes that the person driving the car identifies as being either male or female. It doesn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that there is a real need for a gender neutral pronoun.

It should be: "A person was driving a car. Ey(or some other gender neutral pronoun) turned left."

You don't know the gender of the person driving the car, and, so, can not assume that ey are either male or female.

It all sounds a bit funny, but through common usage it will cease to be so strange.

But, it's not normal, though. — thewonder

Saying such a thing makes me think that you're delusional or possibly a lawyer. What you demand is obviously not normal, generally speaking. It's a peculiar and recent phenomenon which most people not only reject, but find ridiculous. But I can't be bothered to read whatever small print follows the above where you presumably try to qualify that statement.

I am not a lawyer, but I do see how someone could get that impression. I've thought about studying Law.

Just read it. It's only like 8 sentences.

It all sounds a bit funny, but through common usage it will cease to be so strange. — thewonder

Yes, if that happens, then it will cease to be an issue for me. But I don't expect that that'll happen any time soon, and if you believe otherwise, then I think that you're just thinking wishfully. Obviously, before that can happen, a vast number of people would have to go along with the silliness, and not enough people are going to do that.

Perhaps the problem is in the sheer rarity of such people? If they had a large army, and if everyone had one as a neighbor, then things might be different. I don’t know.

In all of this migrating comments nonsense, this didn't get transferred:

Because ey don't identify as being male or female, and, so, it is not correct to subjectify them as either. By doing so, you have referred to another subject who is not present.

I will also begin demanding that you refer to me by the pronoun "xe" if you don't just decide to agree with — thewonder

Holy moley--"correct" again.

There is no "correct" when it comes to this stuff.

I demand that you let me use language however I want to. I don't identify as a conformist to what others want.

I demand that you let me use language however I want to. I don't identify as a conformist to what others want. — Terrapin Station

But you do conform more than you don’t. However, you do conform less than most around here, so I guess that’s the problem with communicating with you.

Eh, I'm hopeful. It's become quite common to use the colloquial "they". That's fine by me in spite of that it actually is grammatically incorrect. I don't mind conceptualizing gender as a multiplicity, though.
It is kind of a particular issue that only ever gets brought up in left-wing academic circles. In so far that such a community is capable of effecting any real change, things will change. You can almost be a Communist without nearly everyone assuming that you're either a Stalinist totalitarian or a backstabbing traitor now. So, they effect some sort of change. Who's to say whether or not it's really for the greater good?

Your demands disregard the demands of others. Just use "they" or "them". That's what mostly everyone who cares about these things does from what I can tell.

Perhaps the problem is in the sheer rarity of such people? If they had a large army, and if everyone had one as a neighbor, then things might be different. I don’t know. — Noah Te Stroete

Why would it be a problem that such people are rare, or that things are the way that they are? Things are the way that they are because it's convenient, makes sense, and because we value freedom of speech. I don't think that it would solve any problem, generally speaking, if a vast number of people suddenly popped up and demanded the rest of us adopt their weird ways of speaking. It would of course suit those with that agenda, but I don't recognise it as a real problem to begin with. It might well be a problem for them, but it's not my problem. But it's a problem if some arrogant and self-obsessed individual starts demanding I call them this or that in some peculiar language. To that, I would probably tell them to do one.

Do you hang out with any feminists? Do you use “he” instead of “one” or “he or she”?

Do you hang out with any feminists? Do you use “he” instead of “one” or “he or she”? — Noah Te Stroete

I use whatever feels right. I wouldn't use "one", as that would be silly. But I wouldn't deliberately refer to a transgender female as a he, for example. I just ain't saying all of the dumb shit, like "xe" or "ey" or whatever.

To that, I would probably tell them to do one. — S

No problem. It’s not my axe to grind.

Your demands disregard the demands of others. — thewonder

Their demands disregard mine.

Who gets preference and why?

If no one practices getting the pronouns correct then they will never become easy to use colloquially. — thewonder

When gender is unknown,
Some pronouns can’t be said,
So, for he or she, use “e”,

As for him or her, it’s “erm”,
And for his or hers, use “eir”.

As for a singular you, that is it;
For the plural, use “you-all”.