ssu - those the German foreigners called 'Welsh' (or 'foreign') were normally called Britons or British all through actually. The word was pinched to label the union with Scotland, and before that Elizabeth 1 used it because Dee convinced her that there had been an earlier 'Welsh' Empire she could reclaim.

This is the rise of populism in the UK. Very sad. Nietzsche spoke of 'slave morality', which unlike 'master morality' is not driven by lofty aims and theorems, but expediency. The ignorant Brexiteer masses don't care about the law or constitution, they just want out of the EU, and as Boris has chosen to champion that simplistic end they support him; thus he's won back hard-line ex-Tories from the Brexit party. — Tim3003

I agree here, but my wonder is how sustainable this position is.

For instance, to contrast to Trump, Trump supporters have almost zero expectations of what Trump will do other than continue to be Trump. The few places where Trump supporters want delivery, Trump has a lot of power to deliver: crack down on immigrants.

Whereas for BJ, if the expectation is to deliver Brexit in a way that's "good for the economy", and he doesn't deliver (Brexit doesn't happen or then hard Brexit happens and his supporters are surprised things don't improve), will his support continue?

In other-words, is his support dissociated with reality as with Trump (ohh, he's paying a porn star for sex ... hmm, must be the reincarnation of an old testament king that God uses as an instrument of divine intervention from time to time; pretty raunchy times the old testament).

Though it's a truism on the left that Brexit mirrors Trumpianism, and there are similar issues for sure, I am not yet ready to give the British so little credit as to be in a Trumpian level delusion (in the sense of "enough supporters"); but I don't have my finger on the pulse of UK culture, clearly the Brexit delusion has been propped up so far, but it's not completely immune to reality (which is why it's dragged on so far; maintaining a status of fringe EU purgatory while pretending to negotiate are necessary conditions to support the Brexit delusion, but are conditions that aren't stable) and so the question arises when, what conditions, the illusion would turn to disillusionment and what do BJ supporters do after that?

Though it's a truism on the left that Brexit mirrors Trumpianism, and there are similar issues for sure, I am not yet ready to give the British so little credit as to be in a Trumpian level delusion — boethius

It might not, but are we able to really answer your question? How are the Brexiteers depicted in the UK?

Brexit and Trump are phenomena were the left simply lost and things didn't go as planned for the ruling elite. Both the Republican and the Conservative party are in disarray. The heart of the support for both Brexit and Trump is in that they gave a giant middle finger to the establishment. Since giving that middle finger succeeded, the supporters are just happy about it and think that little details like political decisions afterwards don't matter so much. They won't leave their baby.

You see both Brexit and Trump are seen as under threat from the left by their supporters: There is the threat that Brexit is cancelled (theoretically at least) and that Trump is impeached (also very theoretical) and the power-elite simply rule out, erase away both voted results. And this 'threat' gives the headphones both to Trumpists and Brexiteers to hear only a ferocious rant from the left in the media, supported by the powers that be, to further this agenda, not genuine criticism of where the policies of Trump and the Brexiteers actually lead the two countries.

In fact both Trump and Brexit need a constant outrage and criticism from the media to gain support.

For instance, to contrast to Trump, Trump supporters have almost zero expectations of what Trump will do other than continue to be Trump. The few places where Trump supporters want delivery, Trump has a lot of power to deliver: crack down on immigrants. — boethius

I don't know the US scene, but isnt Trump the guarantor of all the male white-collar industrial jobs that globalism and immigration threaten? Hence trade wars to defend US companies.

Whereas for BJ, if the expectation is to deliver Brexit in a way that's "good for the economy", and he doesn't deliver (Brexit doesn't happen or then hard Brexit happens and his supporters are surprised things don't improve), will his support continue? — boethius

No, Brexit won't be good economically, no-one believes it will. But we will muddle through, and Boris will find some way to blame international trading conditions or the EU for being malicious. Populist voters have very short memories. Their support, as with Trump, is based on trust rather than anything deeper. They trust him to keep the foreigners out and believe in such simplistic fallacies as optimism to make things work. (They can understand that; unlike all the economic arguments). You may be right that Boris's come-uppance will be swift - but Trump's almost at re-election point and his house of cards hasn't fallen down yet..

Imagine that: the “ignorant Brexiteer masses” want what they voted for. That seems to me such a strange concept nowadays, especially given the refusal to deliver the results and the routine snobbery and fear mongering that justifies its disruption.

Trump is right. Our self-anointed elites are not so elite, and in fact never were. They just act like it on stage. Brexit and anti-Trumpism proves their cowardice and weakness and their waning grip on power.

Imagine that: the “ignorant Brexiteer masses” want what they voted for. That seems to me such a strange concept nowadays, especially given the refusal to deliver the results and the routine snobbery and fear mongering that justifies its disruption. — NOS4A2

Not again. Over half of Brexit voters don't want a no deal Brexit. So at most 25% of those who voted in the referendum for Brexit are in favour of no deal. The vote in the referendum was basically split so a vast majority of those who voted are against a no deal Brexit.

Oh, here we go. I wasn’t speaking of deal/no deal, but remain and leave.

Our self-anointed elites — NOS4A2

Salt-of-the-earth English Brexiteers:



vs. remainer elites:

Trump is right. — NOS4A2

Clearly.

Didn’t Johnson vote to remain? Cameron? Theresa May?

Didn’t Johnson vote to remain? — NOS4A2

Boris Johnson is the current PM. He campaigned and voted to leave and is now trying to leave.

I know who Johnson is, just didn’t know which way he voted. I found a more accurate answer.

Most of those in power voted to remain. The people voted otherwise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

The dichotomy here is not between the elites and the masses. The masses are split down the middle and so are the elites. And when an argument is as easy to parody as yours, that's a good indication it's a bad argument. (See again below).

The people voted otherwise. — NOS4A2

Sure, and when I give you 48% of my money, I keep it all to myself and you get nothing.

The dichotomy here is not between the elites and the masses. The masses are split down the middle and so are the elites. And when an argument is as easy to parody as yours, that's a good indication it's a bad argument. (See again below).

The vote shows that no, the masses are not split down the middle. One side had more votes than the other.

Sure, and when I give you 48% of my money, I keep it all to myself and you get nothing.

We’re talking about a vote, not the change in your pocket.

The vote was approximately 50/50 (51.9 vs 48.1), i.e. split down the middle. Not enough difference to unqualifiedly designate one side as 'the masses' or 'the people'. Is that not obvious to you?

The people had a vote. The majority voted to leave. Leave is therefore the people’s decision. That’s how democracy works. It’s not so difficult to figure out.

It might not, but are we able to really answer your question? How are the Brexiteers depicted in the UK? — ssu

Yes, I agree there is no "answer" ... for now. However, we will find out as events unfold, people can have feelings and insight that is interesting or useful regardless of whether they can prove it.

But I am not asking how they are depicted in the UK, I'm asking what they might actually do if Brexit either doesn't happen at all or there is a crash-out (and the consequences are obviously and immediately negative). It would seem to us that his supporters would abandon him in these events.

Of course, that doesn't exclude a crash-out but amazing Brexit experience or some awesome deal coming out of BJ at the last moment and if not saves the day at least saves face. Of course, these events would merit more support, a leader leading the way.

Trumpianism is characterized by supporters largely just ignoring events and living in a world where "Trump is a good leader" is an irrefutable belief.

It's a truism on the left that Brexiters are similar, but I am doubtful of this claim; it is not a world view immune to events. There is a false faith in Brexit delivering positive outcomes (it's epistemologicaly possible, sure, just not likely), but there is not a world view so false that a disastrous Brexit will be cheered as a victory nor cancelling or a Brexit-lite being re-interpreted as what they wanted all along. At least, that's what I think.

But even if I think this way, maybe there is evidence that I'm wrong, and even if I'm right it leaves the question of what Brexit supporters will actually do vis-a-vis different events unfolding. People can't really prove anything, but they may have feelings and insight about it.

Brexit and Trump are phenomena were the left simply lost and things didn't go as planned for the ruling elite. — ssu

It is not simple, partly for reasons that are even contained in your statement: both the left and the ruling elite lost!?

I'll have to get back to this, as it's interesting to delve into. To quickly summarize, Trump and Brexit are not "simple losses" for the left, they are a new kind of political phenomena (in our political time at least).

Though Trump has emerged from a trend of reality-denial fostered by the right, there is no longer even the pretense of plausible connection to reality and reason. Yes, this is a loss for the left if defined as any honest attempt to understand what is true, but "conservatives" are not defined by a rejection of reality; it happens that Trump is republican but republicans can also prefer reality and still not be left (maybe I think they are wrong, and maybe they really are, but they maybe honestly so and just as frightened by a wholesale rejection of reality and reason as anyone on the left -- in otherwords, Trump supporters are a new constituency that shares only the same name as the previous constituency).

Brexit is driven by a few related issues to Trumpianism, but not really. Part of the argument for Brexit was more money for the NHS?! I.e. more and better socialism. Brexit is also simply not as high stakes as Trump; leaving the EU isn't remotely on the same level as putting a person like Trump in charge of nuclear weapons (and BJ is far from Trump in composure, basic ability to reason, connection to reality; maybe he wants a bit of that Trump sause boosting him up, but he's not unhinged, erratic and self contradictory, with zero respect for the rule of law). He is a fairly normal politician with a fairly good education and ability to make convincing argument through speech, maybe not good but plausible (there's just no comparison to Trump).

Brexit is more a historical train wreck, that is not lethal, but could have been easily prevented on numerous occasions and makes a bumpy ride for the occupants on the train; and the lesson is the engineers driving the train shouldn't suddenly ask the passengers if "they really think trains need tracks, show of hands everyone! We're totally willing to try off-roading this train to settle the issue, fingers crossed!"

You'd be more convincing if you made at least a minimal effort to recognize the nuances of the situation. I'm not sure what purpose your posts serve otherwise. Anyway, carry on.

You'd be more convincing if you made at least a minimal effort to recognize the nuances of the situation. I'm not sure what purpose your posts serve otherwise. Anyway, carry on.

I was pushing back against the sneering about the “the ignorant Brexiteer masses”. But the double standards are noted.

But the double standards are noted. — NOS4A2

Previously, you didn't know what the backstop, the main obstacle to securing a deal, was. Now you've shown you didn't know Boris Johnson supported Brexit despite the fact he was one of the biggest names in the Leave campaign and, according to many commentators, the main reason the vote got over the line. And you constantly give the impression you don't understand how close the vote was. If I ever come into a conversation about anything with this lack of background knowledge, it will either be because I'm helplessly drunk or otherwise have lost my senses completely. What's your excuse? Why are you here?

It’s not so much “ignoring events” as it is ignoring the persistent fear mongering and prophesies about the future, none of which has yet to come true. You worry about Trump with nuclear weapons or a sinking economy with Brexit, and none of that is derived from reality, but from propaganda.

I love politics. I have no ulterior motives and no amount of projection will change that.

It’s not so much “ignoring events” as it is ignoring the persistent fear mongering and prophesies about the future, none of which has yet to come true. — NOS4A2

You do realize Brexit hasn't come true either?

You do realize Brexit hasn't come true either?

I’m well aware of that. It’s amazing how long it has taken. It truly is a scar on the face of democracy.

I’m well aware of that. It’s amazing how long it has taken. It truly is a scar on the face of democracy. — NOS4A2

The fear is about what happens after, and they are reasonable fears from what I tell, which is why a majority of UK politicians are trying to prevent it and why the EU is calling BJ's bluff.

The fear is about what happens after, and they are reasonable fears from what I tell, which is why a majority of UK politicians are trying to prevent it and why the EU is calling BJ's bluff.

Could the fears be overblown and overstated, often by those who who have vested interest in doing so?

It cannot be that bad of a situation. In fact it presents a great opportunity, all while regaining sovereignty from a sclerotic bureaucracy, which is the most important issue of all.

It is not simple, partly for reasons that are even contained in your statement: both the left and the ruling elite lost!? — boethius

Let's say both with Brexit and in the GOP primaries things didn't go as planned. At least the Democrats could handle the somewhat similar revolt by containing the popular Bernie Sanders, but the Republican party didn't and Trump's win came especially to Trump as a surprise (which is evident from his pre-election night posturing). Same thing with Brexit: those who issued the referendum in the first place were endorsing the "remain camp" and got a nasty surprise. That the left lost simply comes from the fact that there's no dispute what the leanings of the Trump supporters and Brexiteers are. Now populism can get a stranglehold on the left too, but this time it's right-wing populism.

Trump and Brexit are not "simple losses" for the left, they are a new kind of political phenomena (in our political time at least). — boethius

Indeed it's a new phenomena, I agree with that.

And also traditional values both of the left and the right are in change. Traditional conservatism is far away from Trump and anti-EU populism. The left it seems that it's supporters are quite ignorant of old school socialism. Seems like the male factory worker has been taken down from his pedestal. I have been surprised that in the US something as old as social democracy is seen as this new thing with just changing the word order to democratic socialism. Even if the US has it's welfare state, the rhetoric never has been anything close to European style socialism.

Brexit is also simply not as high stakes as Trump; leaving the EU isn't remotely on the same level as putting a person like Trump in charge of nuclear weapons — boethius

Uhh...no. Trump and nuclear weapons isn't an issue. Trump is simply such an inept leader that he simply cannot do such trouble. And what is rarely mentioned is that Trump supporters don't like the neocons and the hawks in Washington. He hasn't leashed yet out against Iraq, and there is no push for a new war inside Washington DC. Iran is a difficult enemy, it's not Syria, Libya or Saddam's weakened Iraq.

Do notice that the warmonger neocon John Bolton was fired from his position of being national security advisor. He lasted only 520 days, which is a very long time in the Trump administration, but still.

(That's actually a great move from Trump. :up: )

don't lie. You'd know more if you did.

What is your excuse?

Here is Sir John Major's intervention in the appeal at the Supreme Court. Pretty damming stuff.
It looks to me that the court will find against the government, but may take a less controversial route, that of it was unlawful to Proroge due to the loss of bills in process and the inability for parliament to legislate and hold the executive to account for more time than necessary during a time critical political crisis. Rather than that Johnson mislead the Queen.


https://www.supremecourt.uk/docs/written-case-for-sir-john-major.pdf

As I see it the UK population has become polarised following the credit crunch, austerity has angered a lot of less well off people, often who already had quite nationalistic tendencies, or quite crude/naive political understanding. This was a fertile breeding ground for the nationalist movement.

Alongside this there is a large group of middle to upper middle class mainly older conservative supporters who live in a relatively affluent bubble. They often have quite outdated Thatcherite views.

I am generalising for brevity, these two groups have been exploited by hardline Conservatives who are rabid anti EU and the right wing press, especially The Telegraph and The Daily Mail. In this new climate of 24hr news and social media, mainly Facebook. News and political ideology has become sloganised and the angry populous has lappped it up.

I will reiterate that this whole Brexit mess was conceived developed and delivered to us on a plate by the internal machinations of the Conservative party.