You said that sex changes are artificial - well a) they're not necessarily artificial and b) that's a pointless observation. It is 'as' pointless a pointing out that a sex change that occurs on a Wednesday does not therefore occur on a Thursday. That observation at least has the merit of being true, but it is completely pointless.

So, someone who uses human means to change their sex has not had their sex changed naturally. Okay - so? What's your point?

t’s less pointless than your observation that one can change their sex by altering their body. You can change someone’s skin color by giving them a tattoo. You can change their hair color by dying their hair. These are artificial, not naturally occurring. — NOS4A2

i feel that i need to say that there is nothing wrong with something being man-made, like vaccines, modern medicine, houses, the device you wrote this one and most food is man made, but that does not make it bad

Of course not. It’s quite amazing what we can do as a species, especially when it helps people.

i feel like you should also cover your bases a bit more, because people are really good at twisting other peoples words to mean something that was not intended

That’s my only point. You can only alter or disguise, through force, what nature has already decided.

That’s their prerogative. But I appreciate when someone such as yourself seeks clarification in good faith instead of assumption and accusation. So thank you.

no problem

That's just not true. First, nature doesn't 'decide' anything (nature isn't a person). And second, the whole point is that it is not 'disguising', but altering. That's a big difference. Someone who changes their sex has changed their sex, not disguised it. You seem to be giving with one hand and taking with the other.

that which is red can be made blue — Bartricks

:mask:

That's just not true. First, nature doesn't 'decide' anything (nature isn't a person). And second, the whole point is that it is not 'disguising', but altering. That's a big difference. Someone who changes their sex has changed their sex, not disguised it.

I was speaking figuratively, which is common throughout language. By “decided by nature” I mean genes and hormones, not some doctor with a steady hand, determine and develop sex at the earliest stages of a human’s life. So no, they have not changed any sex, they have merely altered the body in such a way to convince themselves that they have.

I was speaking figuratively, which is common throughout language. By “decided by nature” I mean genes and hormones, not some doctor with a steady hand, determine and develop sex at the earliest stages of a human’s life. So no, they have not changed any sex, they have merely altered the body in such a way to convince themselves that they have. — NOS4A2

I'm gonna disagree with you there, I have changed my sex through hormones and surgery

So now we're back to the "if you had your sex changed on Tuesday, it was not changed on Thursday" kind of point. That is to say, a pointless point.

Only now it seems you really think that sex can't be changed (which was implied by a lot of your language anyway). Yet earlier you'd acknowledged that it could be.

If you think sex can't be changed, why?

If sex is constitutively determined by physical features, then it can clearly be changed, for we do not have any of our physical features essentially.

If sex is constitutively determined by social features, then it can equally clearly be changed (for we do not have any attitudes or roles 'essentially').

If sex is constitutively determined by some combination of the above, or some disjunction of the above, then it can clearly be changed (for all of the above can be changed).

Note: really changed, not disguised.

It is only if our sex has an essential historical component that it would be unchangeable (due to the fact that we can't alter the past). But 'that' conception of sex is, a) pretty implausible and b) even if true, it would only show the irrelevance of that notion of sex to the issues that divide people.

I'm gonna disagree with you there, I have changed my sex through hormones and surgery — sarah young

But presumably you have not changed your chromosomes. You have changed your sex if it’s true that nature no longer determines sex but that the mind determines it..

I'm gonna disagree with you there, I have changed my sex through hormones and surgery

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, artificially changed in the sense that you can remove, replace or alter the body, including parts of the body associated with sex.

But Sex is determined through natural development of an organism which begin at the earliest stages of life, not through alterations of physical features and body parts of an adult. Such development cannot be erased.

why do you think the chromosomal structure of your cells is the crucial thing?

I have no idea what chromosomal structure my cells have (I've never inspected them). So let's say I do inspect them and find that they have the structure you think is required for being female and incompatible with being male. Am I now a female? Should I use the female toilet? Would it be fair for me now to benefit from positive discrimination programmes? (bracketing the issue of whether such programmes are justified at all, of course).

I think the answer to those questions is a fairly obvious 'no'. And vice versa. Someone whose cells happen to have the chromosomal structure that you insist is necessary and sufficient to qualify as a male, but who is in every other respect female, should surely use female toilets and fairly benefit from positive discrimination programmes designed to benefit women (for regardless of their chromosomal structure, they will have been - and/or will be - on the receiving end of the discrimination such programmes are designed - whether justly or not - to ameliorate).

It would be just bizarre, I think, to insist that unless or until the chromosomal structure of your cells is changed, you must use the male toilet or whatever. (Which, in turn, implies that our concept of a male and a female does not make essential reference to chromosomal structure).

look, I have a vagina and boobs now, no matter how legitimate you think them to be I think that they qualify me as a female

That’s fine. So you agree that mind now determines sex, not chromosomes or nature.

that implies that I believe, which i do, determines sex/gender but i also believe that it is say the sex characteristics of a woman, like a vagina and boobs

I’m guessing you mean you have an idea, a concept, of what a woman should look like, not in terms of beauty, but in terms of physical characteristics and that is largely vagina and boobs.

not exactly, but it is those things which made me most comfortable in my own body, think more like not necessary but appreciated

From what you say though, as it seems to me, boobs and vagina are essential, and if you don’t have them then you’re not a complete woman.

First, your view - that chromosomal structure is essential to sex - is implausible. And extremely implausible when applied to the issues that divide people (toilets, positive discrimination, that kind of thing). (And note, sex would still be changeable on your view, it is just that changing it would be more difficult).

Second, there can be disjunctive concepts - that is to say, multiple ways in which someone or something might answer to the concept in question. Take 'being unwell'. There isn't just one way in which someone can qualify as 'unwell' - there are all manner of ways in which one can qualify. It seems plausible that in practice our concept of sex is like that.

So, it does not follow from boobs and vagina qualifying someone as female, that possession of boobs and vagina is essential to being female.

you can lack those and still be a complete woman, besides even if i believed differently who would I be to tell someone they aren't valid

you can lack those and still be a complete woman, besides even if i believed differently who would I be to tell someone they aren't valid — sarah young

So if someone lacked them but still felt they were a complete women then doesn’t this suggest that being a woman on that basis is a state of mind. Of course if you felt that way what else would you want to be. But it’s still a state of mind, don’t you think?

yes i do believe it is astate of mind

:up:

I'd say that's how can appear, but it's a little bit more complicated than that.

People are not infrequently, at least for a time, trans when their mind is insisting the opposite or lacks conception of what's going on. There seems to be something more going on too, at least more than is implied by calling it a truth of mind. Sex or gender is a particularly identity truth itself. We aren't just talking about a thought or feeling someone has when we consider it.

I think people tend to deify words too much. They want to say that there is some strict meaning to words like “sex” and “gender” and that they refer to the nature of one’s birth chromosomes and genitals and as such cannot be changed, but I think that even if that were true it is entirely irrelevant.

There are people who are uncomfortable with the body and/or “social role” they have - an uncomfortableness that reaches the threshold of a recognised psychiatric condition (unlike the example offered of race identity) - and hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery are accepted by professionals as an appropriate - and often the only - treatment. What else is there to be said? You want to say that they’re not “real” men/women because there’s some strict meaning to these words? Even if true, you’re being a dick (like calling a fat person fat).

If people have a preference for name, pronoun, and gender term, then just use it. I didn’t like being forced to refer to my teachers as “sir” or “miss”, but it was polite to do so anyway.

I believe it's insanity, either romatically or madly, discomfort with own gender, submission to a greater male/female essence. It can be many things but there's something wrong going on. which doesn't mean it's evil, but the sexuality is abnormal, unhealthy and possesive and that can be confused as great evil. It's normal for a mind to act this way around such harsh conditions.