The problem people have with you is that you're intellectually dishonest because you give the impression of being a paid troll. Which is a not unreasonable assumption for someone who comes on here every day almost exclusively to spout Trumpian propaganda. Especially someone who's not American and should have little skin in the game. So, expect to be treated with the contempt you most likely deserve.

Well, I am American. The problem is you believe, without evidence, that I’m a paid troll. This is the impression that you take, invent, fantasize, not that I give.

I love political discourse. I’m here to abide by the rules and to discuss politics with what I mistakenly believed were people capable of having such discussions. But from the get go I’ve been unfairly treated with hostility and contempt. That’s fine, I can take it and I will hit back.

Discard the voices of the poor as irrelevant, eh — NOS4A2

Those were not voices of the poor.

Say things that aren't true, eh???

Perhaps I misunderstood, but when you said “we could grant it all, and still discard it as irrelevant information, because that's exactly what it is”, I believed you meant it. But if I was wrong I apologize.

I don’t know the statistics but I would guess mortgages and credit card debt comprise the bulk of personal borrowing in the US. — praxis

Credit card companies are allowed to charge upwards of 30% interest for the remaining life of the loan if the borrower is late just once. That is predatory lending, especially given the way compound interest accrues and is satisfied.

I reserve judgement on your motives and potential remuneration. But yes, someone who comes on here and writes thousands of posts proselytizing the gospel of Trump does give that impression. And the impression would be the same no matter who you were supporting. It goes beyond credibility that you just like the guy enough to make this much effort to lie for him day in day out.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but when you said “we could grant it all, and still discard it as irrelevant information, because that's exactly what it is”, I believed you meant it. But if I was wrong I apologize. — NOS4A2

Ok.

Let's try again...

That survey was and still is irrelevant, for all the reasons I've mentioned that have went neglected.

Another thing...

The survey is not equal to any voice, particularly poor people's voices, because remember...

No poor people were surveyed.

:yikes:

So, I can reject the survey for all the reasons I've given, and still not be discarding voices of the poor.

You my friend are either insincere or mistaken.

In my defense I have hundred more mentions than I do comments, meaning I get thousands of emails notifying me of people commenting to me.

I get it. I’m not welcome here. I can take a hint.

...I don't want to call you crazy, because I feel more sympathy than anything else toward you, but yeah that seems crazy to me. — Pfhorrest

You shouldn't feel pity for me, I'm quite happy with my choices. They're deliberate.

What strikes me as sad, however, is this:

I am sacrificing and postponing major things to safeguard my future, yes. Mostly, I'm living in a much smaller space than many people would accept, and consequently can't live with the woman who would be my wife if only we could live together. — Pfhorrest

If by "major things" you mean things that are very important to you, but you choose to sacrifice for something less important, than that's crazy. But I assume this isn't the case, and that you have rationally concluded that saving money is of greater importance than getting married and living with your girlfriend. In which case I just don't agree. I've come to the opposite conclusion. While you're young enough, healthy enough, strong enough, resourceful enough, etc., to live your life, you should. It doesn't mean being reckless -- I believe in living within your means and not creating problems for yourself. But to postpone things like relationships and projects simply to make your life a little easier when you're older is crazy. Why is living a long time of greater value than living for fully for a short time?And this is not to say one shouldn't' plan ahead and all that, but not at the price of the important things in your youth. Life then becomes work and sacrifice and grind during your 20s and 30s and 40s, when you're at peak creative and physical strength, and a life full of ease and regret later on.

Worth considering. I wouldn't tell anyone how to live, but the logic behind these choices -- and the general sentiment behind them -- is not something I understand or agree with.

I used to be of the mindset that I was fine not worrying about money, going broke was no big deal, etc, back when all going broke meant was not eating for a while, because I had a free roof over my head (the roof my the tool shed next to my dad's trailer, but still). Ever since that got taken away, my top priority became to get back to a place where I could stop worrying about money like that again, where going broke wouldn't mean I would lose absolutely everything, because if I didn't constantly pay someone else for a right to exist somewhere, I would lose any right to exist anywhere. That seems like it should be the most basic of things a human being is entitled to, but apparently we're expected to fight our entire lives just to try to attain it and even then it may all be for nothing. — Pfhorrest

I didn't read this before responding above, but I'll let it stay as I wrote it.

Your choices make much more sense now. Were you poor growing up? I always considered my family as poor, or at least working class, but maybe we would have been considered middle class. In any case, it really does change one's entire perception of life and work. I can't fully empathize with your rationale, perhaps, as I didn't experience the same level of insecurity.

I get it. I’m not welcome here. I can take a hint. — NOS4A2

Now you can go back to crafting and maintaining the predominant Republican worldview...

:wink:

A tool.

I get it. I’m not welcome here. I can take a hint. — NOS4A2

You serve a purpose, which is to stimulate debate and to some extent keep the opposing side on their toes. I don't believe you believe even half the stuff you say, but, whatever, Trump supporters are few and far between on these boards so we might as well have you.

In my defense I have hundred more mentions than I do comments, meaning I get thousands of emails notifying me of people commenting to me. — NOS4A2

How is that a defense? It could indicate trolling behavior.

Freedom of speech, up to date on current events, and very good practice for engaging the standard Republican talking points...

Stick around.

So, there is a huge poverty problem in the US, and it is not solely due to lack of personal initiative.

What role does money lending play in keeping people poor?

The idea that you can "move upwards" is an illusion.

Then why do I - someone who is enlisted military - work around plenty of people who were born into poverty and are now middle class and able to afford homes? Some service members own several homes. This is just not true. — BitconnectCarlos

Going from working class to middle class may be considered "upward mobility," I suppose. But, like I said, that's really an illusion. You have as much power in this country as myself or a janitor.

In fact it's interesting you mention the military -- it's a fairly good deal for a lot of poor kids who can't afford or don't want to go the college route and who can't find a decent job. I know plenty of people who did just that. I'm sure you feel proud about it, to the point where you can now look down on the people making less money than you or not taken care of by the government as you are, as simply weak and lazy and stupid. It's a very self-serving position: I got to where I am because of hard work and merit, and anyone else can as well if they weren't so lazy and didn't choose to be coddled. It's an old conservative/capitalist mantra. I'd recommend seriously questioning that assessment of things.

I also, like you, know many people who have worked their way up from poverty to own a home and get a good-paying job, etc. But all of us are in the same class. In fact, we do not know anyone who isn't. They exist, but they aren't us. It's kind of funny, in fact, that you think you've moved from one class to the other, and the this entitles you to give lectures about poor and working class ambition.

you give the impression of being a paid troll. — Baden

Hopefully someone is paying him. I hate to think he’s getting all butthurt for nothing.

Joining the ranks of the military requires having one's life be put at risk by the personal beliefs of the commander in chief...

I wonder what those enlistment numbers look like nowadays.

The armed services have helped many, no doubt. I've a long line of veterans in my own family, not all of whom glorify it.

I think it's a her...

Could be wrong, but the uncanny resemblance between the word choices here and a certain campaign manager's word choices... the only successful female one... is just that... uncanny.

You know there are plenty of examples of people who simply don't get the opportunities or resources that other people do.

People are just a helpless bunch, aren't they? — BitconnectCarlos

Well since you yourself are one of these "people," do you consider yourself helpless? OK then, neither to they. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm dealing with facts, on which we presumably agree: one group of people do not have access to the same resources and do not get the same opportunities as another group of people. You, for example, will never be a general or a CEO. Never.

There are all kinds of gradations, but it's true. When discussing the wealthiest people -- the people with real power in this country -- this "group" now includes nearly everyone, including you. So while you may feel very proud with your position, remember that you are still one of the 80% - sorry to break it to you. Thus to pick on the percentile below you is like a guy living off of $900 disability checks lecturing a homeless guy about his lack of work ethic.

Exactly right.

meaning I get thousands of emails notifying me of people commenting to me. — NOS4A2

You can turn that off, just fyi.

That's because you give us softballs. Some bright children could notice and correct where you've gone wrong, hence why you get so many mentions and responses -- because it's open to so many.

Incidentally, that should tell you something about your beliefs. Are you open to changing some of them, or do you hold them as objective absolutes?

Credit card companies are allowed to charge upwards of 30% interest for the remaining life of the loan if the borrower is late just once. That is predatory lending, especially given the way compound interest accrues and is satisfied. — creativesoul

It’s a little hard to consider that predatory when payday lenders, for instance, charge over ten times that interest rate and knowingly target those in a desperate position.

It's a little hard to consider a person a murderer for killing just one person when some people murder hundreds and the bar for what counts as being a murderer is set by the worst actual examples...

That's a matter of degree, praxis. They are all predatory.

But yes... the payday loan places are predatory lending at some of it's worst. Legal loan sharks... without the threat of personal violence.

Going from working class to middle class may be considered "upward mobility," I suppose. But, like I said, that's really an illusion. You have as much power in this country as myself or a janitor.

Okay, I'll have to tell some of my co-workers that their move out of poverty and section 8 housing and food stamps into the actual middle class is all just an "illusion." The home they own and the stability they now have means zero because they're not a billionaire able to influence politics and buy senators.

Do you tell overweight people who just ran their first 5k that their time wasn't great?

Even a 1% percenter will never have the wealth that Bloomberg does. How much actual political power do you think someone with, say, $10M has in the grand scheme of things? Tell it Martin Shkreli and Harvey Weinstein (who both had more than $10M).

I'm sure you feel proud about it, to the point where you can now look down on the people making less money than you or not taken care of by the government as you are, as simply weak and lazy and stupid. It's a very self-serving position: I got to where I am because of hard work and merit, and anyone else can as well if they weren't so lazy and didn't choose to be coddled.

Yes, on my free time I enjoy walking around in uniform and telling homeless people to "get a job" and minimum wage earners to "work harder." It's really great fun.

The military was a last ditch effort for me, so now I'm not some flag waving working class conservative. I honestly don't even care what people do or how much they earn, but if someone is going to do nothing to even attempt to get their situation in order and then blame the system on it I'm so done with them.

If someone is able to foresee a problem 40-50 years away and proceeds to ignore it and then finds themselves in dire straits, well, maybe look to yourself first before blaming the entire system.

I don’t consider all lending with interest a bad thing, whereas I consider all murder bad.

I think people would vote for legislation that restricted the worst payday lending practices, even though it might restrict the “freedom” of some to be predators.

Well since you yourself are one of these "people," do you consider yourself helpless? OK then, neither to they. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm dealing with facts, on which we presumably agree: one group of people do not have access to the same resources and do not get the same opportunities as another group of people. You, for example, will never be a general or a CEO. Never.

I would never want to be a general, have you ever seen one come to a military base? They have zero privacy. They need a caravan of security and other high ranking officers around them at all times. God, what a terrible life.

You're also probably right that I'll never be a CEO of some big company, but who cares about working at a big company? The beautiful thing about this economy is that you can be your own boss. It's entirely within the realm of possibility to start your own business where you can be your own CEO.

I'm also a bit of a mover and a shaker, by the way. My salary is not my only form of income. I'm a semi-professional poker player (live near a casino), pretty decent investor/trader, and churning credit cards has netted me a few extra grand here and there. But I suppose none of this stability "really" matters because I'll never be a fortune 500 CEO or a billionaire. Your attitude contributes to your problem. Wealth isn't made in a day, it's often made through generations. Just upping yourself by one class and being able to raise your children in that class is a huge accomplishment. It's sad that you don't see this.

I honestly don't even care what people do or how much they earn, but if someone is going to do nothing to even attempt to get their situation in order and then blame the system on it I'm so done with them. — BitconnectCarlos

Here is the relevant part of your response. It's exactly this sentiment that's wrong. It's in the same group as the old "Welfare Queen" belief, which still persists. Why? Because this is very rare. You can always find outliers to justify your general attitude, but it ignores the wider and much more important data.

But yes, I'm done with those people too. I'm not arguing in favor of gaming the system or capable (but lazy) people wanting a free ride. I'm sure that happens. But again, look at the numbers. And even if the numbers aren't all that clear, it's hard to argue that it's a common occurrence. If that's all you see, it's because that's all you want to see. And it's that fact that I'm talking about -- the attitude or belief held prior to approaching a subject. How did it develop, etc. It's what I was talking about before with irrationality.

If someone is able to foresee a problem 40-50 years away and proceeds to ignore it and then finds themselves in dire straits, well, maybe look to yourself first before blaming the entire system. — BitconnectCarlos

"If."

Well since you yourself are one of these "people," do you consider yourself helpless? OK then, neither to they. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm dealing with facts, on which we presumably agree: one group of people do not have access to the same resources and do not get the same opportunities as another group of people. You, for example, will never be a general or a CEO. Never.

I would never want to be a general, — BitconnectCarlos

No. It's not a matter of wanting. It will never happen, period. Ever. End of story. Whether you want it or not. I may have wanted to play in the NBA, but I wasn't tall enough. People seem fine with things like that, but when it comes to the American Dream of "if you just work hard enough, sky's the limit," we all have to become delusional.

Yes, some people get out of poverty. Some people win the lottery. That's not the point.

They have zero privacy. They need a caravan of security and other high ranking officers around them at all times. God, what a terrible life. — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah, and those grapes they eat are probably sour anyway.

You're also probably right that I'll never be a CEO of some big company, — BitconnectCarlos

"Probably right." I love this. I guess you're a true believer in the American dream. Fine. Don't let me disillusion you if it makes you happy. But in my view, it's a complete delusion. And when used to justify the condemnation of others for their poverty, it's harmful.

I'm also a bit of a mover and a shaker, by the way. My salary is not my only form of income. I'm a semi-professional poker player (live near a casino), pretty decent investor/trader, and churning credit cards has netted me a few extra grand here and there. But I suppose none of this stability "really" matters because I'll never be a fortune 500 CEO or a billionaire. — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah, I guess the guy struggling to feed his kids by working three jobs also doesn't "really" matter because he hasn't yet bought a house, joined the military, etc., like some others who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps with good ol'-fashioned hard work.

It's funny you get defensive and start justifying yourself with a list of your perceived accomplishments. That was precisely the reason for saying what I did. I don't consider you a loser because you're not a CEO, nor do I think it's because you haven't worked hard enough, nor do I think it's because you couldn't do the job or don't have the intelligence or work ethic, etc. You see the relevance?

Your attitude contributes to your problem. Wealth isn't made in a day, it's often made through generations. Just upping yourself by one class and being able to raise your children in that class is a huge accomplishment. It's sad that you don't see this. — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe if you worked harder, you could up it even more. I'm so done with people like you who "blame the system" for where you are.

The above is satire. But my point is this: you'll never be a CEO not because you don't work hard enough or don't "want" it, etc. It's the same reason kids you are more than capable of getting into Havard don't get accepted but a "legacy" kid will. Is that just a matter of merit and hard work, too?

You can't possibly believe this isn't a rigged economy in many ways. You can't possibly NOT see that rich people get preferential treatment from the judicial system, etc. It's simply a matter of statistics. OK, so once you admit that, the question becomes how prevalent it is. Turns out, very much so. More than I ever thought when I was a teenager believing precisely as you do, that anyone who blamed other people or the "system" was like the kid who always blamed his bad shots on the rim. But then I really looked around, listened to people's stories, surveyed the data, etc., and quickly realized my assumptions were dead wrong.

So I don't approach this as a victim and, in fact, I'm very happy with where I am. Likewise with living in this country. To criticize this economy and this country does not mean I hate it or I feel I'm a victim. It's acknowledging reality, of which there's overwhelming evidence that shows it's almost all tilted to the wealthy and the powerful. Which shouldn't be surpassing to anyone who's studied history or who puts down their indoctrination and looks around honestly.