I actually never said you said that but that you fall into the profile of someone who might say something like that. I actually never literally accused you of saying that. You appear to be more open minded than i originally though
— christian2017

Was that an apology?

You show how uncouth you are. A gentleman would just apologise and shut the hell up. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Listen (ooooooooh you make me soooo angry and now i have to change this expletive), no one this forum ever apologizes. Neither of us are gentlemen. Good luck finding a gentleman on this forum. I'm sure there is one somewhere on here.

I was simply saying that you weren't as close minded as i originally thought.

Jesus Christ didn't refute the law of Moses. If Moses allowed divorce, Jesus Christ didn't change that, and if you would like you can try to prove otherwise. — christian2017

I did not say he changed anything. Thanks for the deflection. I said he endorsed a no divorce policy and it is an unjust policy.

If Moses allowed divorce which he did, Jesus Christ was simply saying that the pharisees (and people like that) were taking the issues of the sex and the heart far too lightly. As you well know divorce is not a light issue. — christian2017

You are adding a lot to scriptures without even quoting the original.

You are deflecting all over the place and want me to read half the bible instead of being honest with the text.

Typical Christian.

Seems like we are done here.

Regards
DL

Jesus Christ didn't refute the law of Moses. If Moses allowed divorce, Jesus Christ didn't change that, and if you would like you can try to prove otherwise.
— christian2017

I did not say he changed anything. Thanks for the deflection. I said he endorsed a no divorce policy and it is an unjust policy. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Listen.... I said he didn't change anything. He didn't change the law of Moses. He simply said that even Moses (or God if you will) preferred no divorce. My assumption was you would make that very small leap in thought.

Are you implying modern christian don't read the Bible (including Proverbs chapter 1 KJV)? I agree. — christian2017

Given the lack of decent apologists for Christianity, I can affirm that I doubt that any Christians are reading or living by even the good parts of the bible.

The Catholic Church is even putting priests out there to do apologetics and even they are falling flat on their faces.

This is not surprising as they never had decent moral values to sell and that is why they resorted to murderous inquisitions instead of moral debates. Then as now, Christians are moral cowards.

Trust me on this. I have a long history of being insulted by Christians as they run for the hills.

Regards
DL

If Moses allowed divorce which he did, Jesus Christ was simply saying that the pharisees (and people like that) were taking the issues of the sex and the heart far too lightly. As you well know divorce is not a light issue.
— christian2017

You are adding a lot to scriptures without even quoting the original.

You are deflecting all over the place and want me to read half the bible instead of being honest with the text.

Typical Christian.

Seems like we are done here. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Adding information in every instance is not always deflecting. The best way to find contradictions in the Bible is to approach it from a simplistic perspective. Are you familiar with Proverbs chapter 1 (KJV) particularly that we should embrace subtlety (spectrum) and try to understand dark sayings.

I can promise you if you try to see Jesus Christ as a simple and direct no nonsense kind of kind guy, not only will you find plenty of modern christians who will think like you but you'll also eventually find contradictions in the Bible.

Jesus Christ said "be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove for he sends us out among wolves"

Proverbs chapter 1 (KJV)

I was simply saying that you weren't as close minded as i originally thought. — christian2017

I am a Gnostic Christian and we are known as the only good Christians by some because we have open minds.

I apologise quickly when I goof, and I cannot speak for your experience, but I do not want to believe that the other members hers are as uncouth as you say they are.

I do recognize that the majority are belligerent and obtuse, but I hope not as ill mannered as you think.

Perhaps you have Christians in mind as they are mostly as you describe.

Regards
DL

Given the lack of decent apologists for Christianity, I can affirm that I doubt that any Christians are reading or living by even the good parts of the bible.

The Catholic Church is even putting priests out there to do apologetics and even they are falling flat on their faces.

This is not surprising as they never had decent moral values to sell and that is why they resorted to murderous inquisitions instead of moral debates. Then as now, Christians are moral cowards.

Trust me on this. I have a long history of being insulted by Christians as they run for the hills. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Christians typically aren't allowed to do evangelizing on sites like this. Other religions are given more space for that sort of thing. I don't take it as an insult that i don't post great apologetics. I go on this site so that i consume less alcohol.

Christians tend to have equal or better morals than naturalists. I understand thats not saying much.

Lets say hypothetically someone gave you 80, 90 or 99 percent proof or a substantial argument that your philosophy/religion was inferior to theirs, wouldn't that drive you to depression? I would love to have a great reason to embrace atheism or naturalism. I can think of far worse things.

Listen.... I said he didn't change anything. He didn't change the law of Moses. He simply said that even Moses (or God if you will) preferred no divorce. My assumption was you would make that very small leap in thought. — christian2017

I Indicated that the Yahweh/Jesus combo wanted a no divorce policy. Not Moses. He did not reply to Jesus in that passage.

Regards
DL

I am a Gnostic Christian and we are known as the only good Christians by some because we have open minds. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

By some. And then others think you are crazy. And then others think you have terrible sexual immorality. Public opinion can be hard to quantify (keyword hard) and also public opinion is not in every case a reason to be proud.

I do recognize that the majority are belligerent and obtuse, but I hope not as ill mannered as you think. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I find you belligerent and obtuse, but so am i and most of the people on this forum. Welcome to an online forum.

Listen.... I said he didn't change anything. He didn't change the law of Moses. He simply said that even Moses (or God if you will) preferred no divorce. My assumption was you would make that very small leap in thought.
— christian2017

I Indicated that the Yahweh/Jesus combo wanted a no divorce policy. Not Moses. He did not reply to Jesus in that passage. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

But Jesus never said that divorce wasn't allowed. Once again Jesus didn't abolish the law of Moses. Jesus said he didn't abolish the law of Moses. Would it make you feel more comfortable if I posted 10 different Bible chapters for you to read or do you want to use the world's great Bible reference called google and bing?

I can promise you if you try to see Jesus Christ as a simple and direct no nonsense kind of kind guy, not only will you find plenty of modern christians who will think like you but you'll also eventually find contradictions in the Bible. — christian2017

Contradictions in the bible I already know by the score and having suffered my apotheosis and gained a Christ consciousness, I can tell you that any modern Christian who, given the nature of Christianity, remains a Christian and does not convert to either Gnostic Christianity or atheism, they will not think like me or Jesus.

Many are called to do so but remain on the wide road to hell instead of joining me in heaven.

Regards
DL

Contradictions in the bible I already know by the score and having suffered my apotheosis and gained a Christ consciousness, I can tell you that any modern Christian who, given the nature of Christianity, remains a Christian and does not convert to either Gnostic Christianity or atheism, they will not think like me or Jesus.

Many are called to do so but remain on the wide road to hell instead of joining me in heaven. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

What contradictions are there in the Bible? Can you name one? If i'm bleeped out of existence when i die, there is no hell. Or do you have some great explanation as to how i can experience hell if i am bleeped out of existence?

What is obvious to me is the power of having special knowledge. This power is even greater if it is believed to be sacred knowledge. It becomes even greater when there is only one god, only one truth. Democracy is an imitation of the gods who argued with each other until they had a consensus on the best reasoning. None of those gods had absolute power and each one had his/her point of view. — Athena

I hear the connection you make between devices of power and the ideas that make that viable. But we all live our life's trying to make the best of what has been given to us to deal with. The history of Christianity is a strange combination of different impulses. I have no interest in justifying anything.

At the end of day, there is only you or I to say what is important.
And we will do that or not.

Christians typically aren't allowed to do evangelizing on sites like this. — christian2017

Apologetics is not evangelizing. It is explaining the text with arguments and opinions and not just quoting it the way the more stupid believers do.

I go on this site so that i consume less alcohol. — christian2017

Try pot. It is way healthier and a change of thinking pattern might be handy.

Christians tend to have equal or better morals than naturalists. — christian2017

???

Do naturalists believe that genocide and infanticide are good character traits? I don't think so.

Stop being so stupid drunk.

Lets say hypothetically someone gave you 80, 90 or 99 percent proof or a substantial argument that your philosophy/religion was inferior to theirs, wouldn't that drive you to depression? I would love to have a great reason to embrace atheism or naturalism. I can think of far worse things. — christian2017

Depression??

Hell no. It would be glorious. One of the greatest joys in life is being corrected. To resist it is to want to remain on the wrong path. Christians do that, en mass, as they put their tribal associations ahead of their moral sense. Gnostic Christians do the opposite, and being that we are perpetual seekers after the best rules and laws to live by, I would even pay money to lose an argument.

As to worse things. Just look at the mainstream religions.

By some. And then others think you are crazy. And then others think you have terrible sexual immorality. — christian2017

Only the stupid who do not know a Gnostic Christian and only believe the lies that the inquisitors put out to justify their many murders of my forefathers.

I find you belligerent and obtuse, — christian2017

I am a fundamental, yes, but you cannot quote or find anywhere where I am obtuse.

Stop lying you drunken bum. Kidding on that last.

You are just repeating in your last so I will ignore it.

Regards
DL

Christians typically aren't allowed to do evangelizing on sites like this.
— christian2017

Apologetics is not evangelizing. It is explaining the text with arguments and opinions and not just quoting it the way the more stupid believers do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I've been accused of evangelizing for very minor things on this site a long while back. Christians are held to higher standards on sites like this. I go on this site so that i drink less alcohol.

I go on this site so that i consume less alcohol.
— christian2017

Try pot. It is way healthier and a change of thinking pattern might be handy. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I have no problem with alcohol except the fact that it has more legal ramifications. Except for measuring intoxication from driving, i don't believe it is less moral.

Christians tend to have equal or better morals than naturalists.
— christian2017

???

Do naturalists believe that genocide and infanticide are good character traits? I don't think so.

Stop being so stupid drunk. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

The amorites were committing genocide (infanticide) on their own people and they oppressed their poor. The poor in ancient canaan weren't largely concerned about having their lives shortened. Depressed people very often prefer a shortened life over suicide. You talk of hell, why do bad people need to go to hell? The ancient israelites also murdered children. Would you like me to post articles about these two topics?

Why do you say i'm a drunk? Isn't alcohol consumption a spectrum?

Naturalists support abortion. Abortion is forgivable but it is murder. Its better to die young then grow up in a very depressing and corrupt culture....

Lets say hypothetically someone gave you 80, 90 or 99 percent proof or a substantial argument that your philosophy/religion was inferior to theirs, wouldn't that drive you to depression? I would love to have a great reason to embrace atheism or naturalism. I can think of far worse things.
— christian2017

Depression??

Hell no. It would be glorious. One of the greatest joys in life is being corrected. To resist it is to want to remain on the wrong path. Christians do that, en mass, as they put their tribal associations ahead of their moral sense. Gnostic Christians do the opposite, and being that we are perpetual seekers after the best rules and laws to live by, I would even pay money to lose an argument.

As to worse things. Just look at the mainstream religions. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You say you are very advanced in age? (based on a previous conversation from a while back)

As to worse things, i find that naturalism and/or atheism leads to a simplistic view on how to treat people so it would benefit my spirits to become naturalist or atheist.

By some. And then others think you are crazy. And then others think you have terrible sexual immorality.
— christian2017

Only the stupid who do not know a Gnostic Christian and only believe the lies that the inquisitors put out to justify their many murders of my forefathers. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

ok. I make the best pizza in the world but how would i prove that on an online forum.

I find you belligerent and obtuse,
— christian2017

I am a fundamental, yes, but you cannot quote or find anywhere where I am obtuse.

Stop lying you drunken bum. Kidding on that last.

You are just repeating in your last so I will ignore it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

i'm not going to pull up quote after quote where you pretend to fail to see very short leaps or connections (very simple ones). We'll just have to agree to disagree about which one of us is more obtuse or belligerent.

Jesus told the Pharicees they had the wrong concept of who God is. Do you understand what I am getting at. Typed from my phonE — christian2017

How is such a god who can be known different from Zeus?

esus told the Pharicees they had the wrong concept of who God is. Do you understand what I am getting at. Typed from my phonE
— christian2017

How is such a god who can be known different from Zeus? — Athena

I know of the Iliad and Homer and in fact the writings that were associated with Homer were used as school literature and to some extent used as religious teachings in classical greece. I don't know a tremendous about how Zeus viewed the world. This might be unfair but many associate Zeus with satan. Once again this might be unfair however Pergamos in Revelation is the throne of Satan and a major temple of zeus was in pergamos. However Asclepius was also there. Should the christian associate Asclepius or Zeus with the throne of satan, i don't know (or both). Zeus was also the god of Antiochus the 4th (the proto anti-christ and the antagonist of Maccabees). Antiochus the 4th was the antagonist of the story of Hannakah. I'm not a big jew fan, i believe they have the right to Israel or atleast to a bigger country than they have. I don't believe modern Israel is a safe home for jewish people.

I don't believe Jews are inherently better than non jews.

But back on topic, some say Zeus favored the poor based on stories of him visiting and testing people by morphing into a poor man. Other than what limited knowledge i have of the Iliad and the Odyssey and stories like that, i don't have an in depth knowledge of greek pagan theology. In my opinion a careful study of the old testament will reveal a god who wants to bless the poor through practical and equitable ways. "you shall not show partiality to neither the poor nor the rich". In our modern society the poors problems can be solved through modernizing building codes in light of global factory production of building materials which would enable us to have a fiscally conservative society. I'm not going to expand on that right now.

I do see ancient greek culture as an extension of greek pagan theology but i feel (and i could be wrong) much of the more intense religious aspects of the ancient greek was more entrenched in personal and unnotable gods. Much of greek thought was governed from their desire to be like people like Odysseus and Odysseus was big deal back then and studied quite abit, Odyssesus was what would in modern times called "filled with hubris".

Jesus Christ did say "be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove for he sends us out among wolves", however just as poseidon tremendously punished Odyssesus, God/Jesus Christ has the power to send the unbeliever to suffer forever. I believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved". If the horse has a broken leg, it is taken out behind the barn and shot, and it goes to horse heaven.

Do you have a holy book related to Zeus other than the Iliad or the Odyssey?

There are over 1050 laws or strong suggestions in the new testament and over 613 laws or strong suggestions in the old testament related to who Jesus Christ is. I don't know alot about Zeus, but Jesus Christ is nothing like Mohomad. Mohomad had very strange sexual practices akin to the Roman Papacy.

If Zeus was like the god of the Bible, i have no holy book currently (currently) at my disposal to prove it.

The book of Jeremiah and also Isaiah point to a very intricate god who cared for people who had it bad.

Isaiah chapter 53 and 54 point to god with very unique qualities (KJV).

At the end of day, there is only you or I to say what is important.
And we will do that or not. — Valentinus

What is important or what is true? In an extremely short time, say between Bacon and the present, we have we overcome the evils that took our children and kept our live expectancy down to less than 45 years and kept our economies in extreme poverty and ignorance. This awesome achievement was not the result of sacrificing animals, or praying to a god, or being faithful to a god. The question of this thread is our desire for knowledge good or sinful? What do you think, would you rather return to the Dark Ages when the only things to learn were a vocation and a religion? We are far more civil with our full bellies and securities than we were a few hundred years ago.

There is so much more than you and I and I think it is a mistake to stop there. This world pandemic could radically change our lives and bring in universal medicine and a greater consciousness and caring for everyone. Or, given today's March 21, 2020 Oregon Boarcasting shows about air force heroes, I suspect the US is preparing for a war and that could change our country more than any previous war. I think we better look for what is true, and take action, not what is important.

That was an interesting read that held my attention. However, when I asked my question, I was not thinking of comparing human stories of the gods. My thinking was very simple. I don't think anyone today believes Zeus was a real god. Why should I believe the God of Abraham is a real God?

Or to make this a lot of fun, why would a human want to be a god?

That was an interesting read that held my attention. However, when I asked my question, I was not thinking of comparing human stories of the gods. My thinking was very simple. I don't think anyone today believes Zeus was a real god. Why should I believe the God of Abraham is a real God? — Athena

Are you saying there is no compassion at your local church? Is the suicide rate really high these days? (yes). Were flying cars possible 20 years ago (9/11)? Do we live in a science fiction movie? (yes)

Are there fiscally conservative solutions that would make the poor relatively happy and also self sufficient (yes). Do people like to label the poor lazy? (yes).

Basically we are more than likely about to come to the end of an era. Is it the end of the world i don't know. If you can't find any beauty in your local church, than no, i have no reason to tell you to believe in the god of the Bible. The modern church sqaunders the tithes and offerings. To give that money to a local crack head would honor Jesus Christ more than what the typical church does with it's money.

We can only make decisions based on the information we have.

churches have to spend a certain amount on charity, but after they check that box off they very often, stop right there. Churches very often impede true fiscal conservatism with their political voting record and what they say at the county commissioner meetings.

Apparently you never read the Koran and the Haddiths. Try that before posting more false statements. — Nobeernolife

Starting with the God of Abraham all the notions of God are false, so my dear, there is no god who hates people, there are only people who believe there is a god and that their holy book is the truth, and the other holy books are not true. Or people who share the same holy book and disagree with the other person's interpretation of the book. I do not have much patience for this.

The way I understand the definitions, morals are the thinking part and ethics are the action part.

I share your wish that business and governments would be more democratic but they have a long way to go yet.

Christianity may work for millions, as you say, but it does not work to bring equality for all as they continue to preach their homophobic and misogynous teachings that victimises more millions than what it works for.

I think that the sooner we rid ourselves of the religions that are inferior in law to secular law, Christianity and Islam leading that list, the sooner all will have equality.

Regards — Gnostic Christian Bishop

:lol: You and I are having a very different conversation than everyone else. I prefer the conversation we are having.

Wanting knowledge is not wanting to be a god, but wanting to stay alive and to keep the people we care about alive. It is ridiculous to argue religion as though that was not true from our beginning. We did not begin in Paradise, but as animals trying to stay alive. Please, please can have a discussion that is based on reality?

So we have agreement that a moral is a matter of cause and effect? If it is good no harm is done. It is evil/bad, if harm is done. Now what we have to do is determine if harm is done or not. That is self-evident, isn't it? I mean deciding if it causes harm or does not cause harm depends on what is so, not on believing a myth.

Democracy is about arguing until we have a consensus on the best reasoning. Even after we have a consensus someone can have a new idea that proves we were wrong, and then we need to adjust to the new truth. This is what makes democracy radically different from religion. Like with religion, everyone can know without a doubt that the earth is round and not at all the center of the universe, and still argue the false stories are God's truth. That is a bit crazy, isn't it? I think I am getting a headache:lol:

We do have some democratic industry and Germany has more democratic industry than the US. While Japan has used Deming's model for industry since WWII and it has kicked our asses in competition for world markets. So it behooves us to learn of the Deming model and rethink our power as citizens in the US.

I do recognized the power of positive thinking and bio feedback but that is it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yeah, and I just wish we all agreed that is why prayers work. It is not a special gift from Jesus. It doesn't matter what religion a person is practicing nor how God is understood. Prayers work the same for people of all religions. It is about self-talk and our physical response. Believing the pill will get desired effects can work even if the pill is a placebo, depending on the health problem. Placebos do not replace amputated legs. But if we pray to god for the desire to go swimming everyday, that is something Jesus can give us, and then we might avoid the amputated leg.