I'm guessing this is about boredom, but many of us don't count boredom as a big issue. To me it's aging, disease, accidents, and crime/injustice that speak against existence. I can think of many experiences that I'd love to repeat again and again. — jjAmEs
It doesn't matter how many "novel" things you do to stay ahead of the curb, it's all repetitive actions to fulfill our primal motivations of survival, comfort-seeking, entertainment. But this is just repetitive actions that fill time and provide the absurdity I talk about. It's all been done to the umpteenth time by billions and billions of people over and over. There is no need to keep repeating the repetition again and again and again... — schopenhauer1
So, does antinatalist philosophy lead man (who is already existing) to truth and clarity which will help him lead his life (now that he's born) better? No. It won't. On the contrary, a good case made for antinatalism will deprive life of all meanings. Now, is that what man wishes? No. A man (who is born) wants to be happy. That's ingrained in the tenets of biology making it a fact. Of course it's a point worth considering. But, it just that. A point worth considering. If a man deliberately wants to sad, he may brood over this topic, but the only kind of men who would want that are:
1. Men who seek only intellectual stimulation.
2. Men who want to find an excuse for their circumstances (circumstances which could very well be improved if a man dwells in a different view-point)
So, is it not worth it to find a philosophy which will make THIS life better? — Zeus
I don't think we can say one way or another about happiness ingrained in biology. — schopenhauer1
A pessimist would not necessarily try to discourage trying to maximize your preferences. What they might do is say that there is a pattern in our own psychology whereby we cannot simply "be" but only becoming, where we must find some goal in the distance that we think needs to overcome to give us something to cling to. They may recognize the absurdity of the repetition of even the goods of life (relationships, pleasure, beauty, humor, etc.). They may recognize that we are all in this together. So if there were a lot of pessimists, a communal pessimism, there may be a feeling of brotherhood in our rebellion against that which puts us in this position. In a way, there is a positivity in this shared recognition. — schopenhauer1
They may recognize the absurdity of the repetition of even the goods of life (relationships, pleasure, beauty, humor, etc.). — schopenhauer1
I think repetition can be looked at differently. Can not a man live in a way that his memory does not come in way of his experiencing? Why should I be thinking about my sexual experiences with my ex-girlfriend when I am making love to my girlfriend. Those two experiences are by no way same. This point can be discussed more elaborately. — Zeus
I never said you had to deny pleasure in the moment to go all contemplative if you didn't want to. Rather, it is just an overall understanding. I understand that we are still here and we still have to make it through however way gets us by with the least suffering. Pursuing goods is also not frowned upon. It is more of of an aesthetic understanding. It is about the need for need and what this entails. — schopenhauer1
I am interested in knowing, holding such a world-view, where is one emotion-wise? I think, if one is really honest with oneself and if one's (even if he himself is leading a relatively comfortable life) opinions encompass a big enough sample space of human beings, then he would be deceiving himself if he calls himself anything other than a pessimist. So, then where is one then emotionally? Can this question be answered objectively? — Zeus
Secondly, to further your point on the apparent routine of everyday life, is there something, anything, in this world that doesn't follow a routine? I think there is one thing, and it's art. In expression there is tremendous possibility. Kafka gave so much to the world but, he too was plagued by repetitiveness. But, his works suggest anything but. L. S. Lowry, the great English artist, found through his art a respite from the routine. Krishnamurti said, whatever we can think about, is mechanical. Everyday life is routine because it is a by-product of thought. Art frees one to go beyond this plane. Also, there is beauty. The beauty of the river, the sea, the meadows, the sky. It might be a cliche but we don't really LOOK. Would you agree? — Zeus
I am completely for your pessimism argument. But, don't you think there is something beyond earthly pleasures? Something beyond the routine? — Zeus
Let's say you get a sublime feeling of aesthetic pleasure from a view from a mountain or creating a painting of some tragedy and meaning, or reading a great piece of literature, or composing or just listening to a great piece of music...then what? It's over, you try to get that feeling back. — schopenhauer1
Regarding antinatalism, couldn’t it be argued that attempting to prohibit people from having children creates additional suffering on those of us who would prefer or enjoy having a child? It see to me that the suffering that two people that want to be parents would experience potentially could be greater than the suffering one person could potentially experience as a result of being born, because the total amount of suffering would have to include the sum of the two people that want children (and perhaps the suffering of people who want grandchildren, nieces/nephews, etc.). I know that people that learn they are infertile, as well as expectant parents that have had miscarriages, can go to some pretty grim places emotionally and mentally as a result of not being able to have children or losing them. Also, it seems that antinatalism disregards the pleasure that one person can provide to several other people. — Pinprick
Regarding pessimism, it seems that the entire philosophy is predicated on the fact that life is absurd due to the repetition of chasing goals to temporarily alleviate our suffering, such as you have described. I don’t dispute this, but have you considered whether or not life would be better or worse if our needs for survival, maintenance, and entertainment were completely and permanently satiated? I think this scenario would be even less tolerable, because then we wouldn’t even possess the absurd repetition that we claim is so bad. — Pinprick
Therefore isn’t it better to accept fate, a la Nietzsche, and will both the pleasures and sufferings that life necessarily consists of? — Pinprick
1) I've definitely heard this argument before and my general response is that if it causes other people's suffering, one that will continually appear throughout possibly 80+ years of another person's life, then this consideration overrides one's own suffering for not being able to do an action that causes someone else's suffering. — schopenhauer1
What this all comes down to is that when you are doing something to someone else that leads to inevitable and unnecessary suffering, then any other consideration for one's own reasons for doing this are secondary or should not even be in the equation. — schopenhauer1
I say rebel. We can rebel communally. We all know we are in this situation, and we all agree to stop it for future generations. — schopenhauer1
Ok, but I’m just not convinced that the intermittent suffering of the child for 80+ years would be greater than the intermittent suffering of two people (both parents) for, let’s say 50-60 years. And to me I think it is at least conceivable that two people who desperately want to have children but can’t would intermittently suffer for the remainder of their lives as a consequence. — Pinprick
1. This checks out fine if you are only practicing this in your personal life, but if you are advocating for, or in any way trying to prevent other people who want to have children from doing so, then you are causing them to needlessly suffer. I’m not saying you are or aren’t trying to do this, I don’t know. — Pinprick
This seems like a moral argument since it pertains to how people should conduct their life. However, morality itself is aimed at determining what type of life is good, among other things. Antinatalism seems to entail the denial of morality since it denies that life itself is good. Therefore it appears contradictory for a moral nihilist(?) to proceed to make moral arguments. IOW, if you do not value life, or think that life has any value, then how can you logically make an argument that appeals to values at all? If you do not value life, then how can you say you care how people are treated? — Pinprick
There is thus a strange optimism here. In other words, it is in death that we achieve that which we are always striving for, and while alive only evanescentally attain: being in-itself, full positivity, full coincidence with who and what one is/has been. However, this is not necessarily to say death is preferable, even if it is inevitable, and even if the for-itself as a project is always a failure. Without wanting to sound like a self-help book, it is also true in the existentialist sense that it is only within the experience of failure that we also find the real seeds of success, of transfiguration, of being something while also not being that something after all. — Umbra
1) The sun goes up and down, round and round.
2) You go to bed and get up again and again.
3) You eat and shit over and over.
4) You read your book, watch your movie, do your exercise, talk to your friend, again, again, again
5) You make it a point to travel to "new" (to you) places again and again and again
6) You seek out relationships over and over and over
7) You go to work each day again and again and again
8) You do stuff for maintenance like laundry, dishes, over and over
9) You take that millionth walk/run around the block or on your treadmill
It doesn't matter how many "novel" things you do to stay ahead of the curb, it's all repetitive actions to fulfill our primal motivations of survival, comfort-seeking, entertainment. But this is just repetitive actions that fill time and provide the absurdity I talk about. It's all been done to the umpteenth time by billions and billions of people over and over. There is no need to keep repeating the repetition again and again and again... — schopenhauer1
No, but that's not my argument, which suffering will be greater. My argument is that the parents' suffering is irrelevant as it is causing suffering for someone else. This is no longer about one's own pain, but causing someone else pain. — schopenhauer1
Well, I'm not. I'm advocating that people don't cause the conditions for other people to suffer. I am not forcing them to do so. And again, the "needless suffering" of unrequited parenting is irrelevant when it is tied to causing the conditions for someone else's suffering. — schopenhauer1
Rather, antinatalism values prevention of needless suffering for other people, especially in the case of birth, as there is no downside of an actual person losing out on the goods of life (as no one existed prior to birth to be deprived of this). — schopenhauer1
It is true that procreation is the necessary condition for people to suffer. — schopenhauer1
I get that my suffering is irrelevant if I, as someone contemplating parenthood, choose to not have children on the basis of Antinatalism. However, if I adopt Antinatalism as an ideology, it seems to entail that I believe that people should not have children. Meaning other people. This is where I get stuck on how you can actually hold Antinatalism as an ideology without implying to the rest of the world that they shouldn’t have children. I know people who have chosen to not have children, and their reasons are whatever they are. It is a personal choice, and as such, remains private. But by making your personal choice public and espousing it as an ideology, it is implied that you judge other’s choices to have or not have children as either “good” or “bad.” In this way, suppose you are successful in convincing me that I shouldn’t have children even though I want to. Wouldn’t you at least be partly responsible for whatever suffering I endure as a result of this decision? — Pinprick
I also agree with this, but it’s also true that procreation is necessary for morality itself to continue. Therefore, to be against procreation entails being against morality, at least as a side effect. IOW’s if the moral statement “Thou shalt not procreate” is applied universally via Kant’s Categorical Imperative, then the elimination of morality will logically follow in time. — Pinprick
Yes, it is like veganism. It is a choice, and one can convince others of its merits. — schopenhauer1
Obviously, if they think that the case is relevant enough to follow-through with it, they believe they are indeed causing someone else's lifetime of possible instances of suffering if they procreated. Clearly, they agree and follow the antinatalist argument, they think it is more important to prevent suffering than to cause conditions of suffering for another (even if it seems against their own initial wants). — schopenhauer1
A very extreme example of this is a sociopath who gets joy from causing others pain. Should he be accommodated because his pain is so great by suppressing his true passions? Of course not. Let's make it less stark. Should a religious nut who thinks causing suffering and death for others is the righteous thing to do be allowed to act on those impulses because not doing so causes them the suffering of not being able to do those acts? Of course not. — schopenhauer1
If no one is around to suffer, then morality doesn't matter. Morality only matters for those already existing. I don't see anything contradictory there. Humans don't exist to keep morality going, morality exists only when multiple humans and sentient life comes in the picture. — schopenhauer1
Antinatalism only exists within the context of morality, but Antinatalism entails the ending of human life if carried out across the board, which then entails the end of morality, which is the very scaffolding holding up Antinatalism in the first place. It’s a snake swallowing it’s own tail. — Pinprick
But to prevent suffering by preventing life defeats the purpose of Antinatalism. If Antinatalism is a type of morality, then it necessarily includes the premise that life is worth living. — Pinprick
If it is stating that one cannot live a good life, because there’s no such thing as a good life due to the inevitable experience of suffering, then it is essentially Nihilistic. It denies morality. Therefore, it cannot validly make moral claims about what is good, or how we should live. — Pinprick
I can agree with this, but if Antinatalism’s premise is that causing suffering for someone else is always bad, then that entails much more than preventing birth. It would also entail being against many different medical procedures; vaccines/shots, foul tasting medicine, exams that cause discomfort, etc. Or does it hold the position that it is ok to directly cause suffering if by doing so more intense suffering is prevented or lessened? — Pinprick
Holding a moral view that results in ending morality seems contradictory. The justification for the view directly appeals to morality, but also indirectly destroys the preconditions for morality. — Pinprick
Again, I see no problem. No humans = no need for morality. — schopenhauer1
No that is not entailed in morality. Morality can be a set of many things that are regarded to how humans should act and treat each other. — schopenhauer1
This argument states that it is wrong to create suffering on behalf of another person who will suffer throughout their whole life in unknown but often predictable ways. — schopenhauer1
No, it does not deny morality. Unlike nihilism (which does not believe in any values), pessimism/antinatalism puts a premium on prevention of unnecessary suffering which is actually a compassionate stance. In the case of procreation, the least suffering you can cause for a future person is to not have that possible future person. — schopenhauer1
Yes, the second one. ONCE BORN, then things change. The whole logic changes actually. The decision prior to someone's birth is an asymmetry in respect to preventing suffering for a future person (which is always a good thing), and preventing good experiences for a future person (which is neither good nor bad because there is no actual person to be deprived of the good experiences). The asymmetry here always is skewed towards the prevention of suffering, meaning non-birth of the future person. — schopenhauer1
If Antinatalism entails “no humans” then it also entails no need for morality. Agree? If that is the case, then why make moral statements and judgements? Your argument for me to refrain from procreating is based on the belief that doing so is good. However, your argument also entails that morality is pointless or unnecessary. Therefore, what you consider to be good is irrelevant because morality is pointless or unnecessary. Put simply, you can’t tell me to behave morally and then go on to say that morality is unnecessary. I have no reason to behave morally if morality doesn’t matter. — Pinprick
Yes, but behavior is only a means to the end, which is life being good or tolerable. Life is what gives meaning to behavior. — Pinprick
Why is this wrong? If the justification for this includes the goal of making life better in some way, then ending life refutes the justification. Having no life at all doesn’t make life better. — Pinprick
It’s nihilistic in the sense that it’s consequence results in morality ceasing to exist. I understand that Antinatalists have values. But their values are irrelevant because they result in morality becoming extinct. — Pinprick
That does not entail that we must be alive so morality can come into play. — schopenhauer1
3) The purpose of making moral claims is to increase moral behavior. — Pinprick
6) Therefore, Antinatalism’s goal of increasing moral behavior becomes impossible, as neither people nor morality will continue to exist if Antinatalism is adhered to. — Pinprick
I’m not making the claim that morality must endure no matter what, as if it is some purpose or meaning of life. — Pinprick
It’s similar to coaching a team to do its best, but then not keeping score of the game. Doing your best becomes pointless, because the purpose of doing your best is to win the game. — Pinprick
3. The whole economic bread and circuses was just that, an illusion. This system is as fragile as it's ever been. The economic system is for the elites' GDP, not ours. — h060tu
to go ahead and procreate more people is to feed the necessary human system that needs more people in a population to be inculcated on an individual scale in enough quantities to be able to form the habits to produce and consume to keep the round-and-round absurdity going on an aggregate scale. Why be cosponsors of this kind of absurd perpetuation at the cost of making a new sufferer (a person who can experience suffering) in the first place?
So.. I don't know what you're getting at honestly. — schopenhauer1
Winning the game would be preventing all suffering. If no one existed, no one suffers. — schopenhauer1
isn’t true. You’ve eliminated the game itself, so you can’t even play it. — Pinprick
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