I intend to drive some nails. I make a hammer accordingly. The final cause of the hammer is not achieved until I actually drive the nails with it - after I have made it. — aletheist
I agree that there is final cause, intent behind the creation of teeth, that they were created for this purpose, like I also believe there is intent, or purpose, behind the dam which the beaver builds, but many people don't agree with this, so it is a contentious issue. So I actually agree with you that there is final cause in things other than human actions, I think final cause can be found in the actions of living things in general, including the growing of teeth. But you and I have a slightly different idea of what final cause actually is.The final cause of teeth is biting and chewing food. — aletheist
The final cause of the hammer is your intent to drive nails. — Metaphysician Undercover
I agree that there is final cause, intent behind the creation of teeth, that they were created for this purpose ... — Metaphysician Undercover
No, it is the driving of nails - something that is in the future when the hammer is made, not the present or the past. That is why we call it the final cause, or the end. It is the result; it comes last in the temporal sequence. — aletheist
Do you now agree that force simultaneously causes acceleration? — aletheist
It is called "final" cause because we are referring to the desired "end", having the nails pounded. — Metaphysician Undercover
It is contradictory to think that the cause of something is posterior in time to that thing. — Metaphysician Undercover
It is called "final" cause because we are referring to the desired "end", having the nails pounded. — Metaphysician Undercover
No, I don't think force causes anything. "Force" refers to the power which one thing exerts on another thing. It is conceptual. — Metaphysician Undercover
One thing causes the acceleration of another thing ... — Metaphysician Undercover
But isn't that what he said--that the final cause of a hammer is driving nails? — Terrapin Station
Exactly. My whole point is to call attention to the fact that when I make the hammer, its final cause is something in the future, not the present or the past. — aletheist
And this happens instantaneously — aletheist
... explain to me how the act of driving nails could possibly cause the existence of the hammer. — Metaphysician Undercover
This concept of final cause is integral to the concept of free will ... — Metaphysician Undercover
It's not instantaneous though, that's why there is a need for the concept of "acceleration". The motion of one object is not instantaneously transferred to the other object. — Metaphysician Undercover
Again (4) in the sense of end or 'that for the sake of which' a thing is done, e.g. health is the cause of walking about. ('Why is he walking about?' we say. 'To be healthy', and, having said that, we think we have assigned the cause.) The same is true also of all the intermediate steps which are brought about through the action of something else as means towards the end, e.g. reduction of flesh, purging, drugs, or surgical instruments are means towards health. All these things are 'for the sake of' the end, though they differ from one another in that some are activities, others instruments. — Aristotle, Phys. 194b 33 - 195a 3
So again, in the case of a hammer, "Why have we made a hammer?" "To drive in nails." We haven't made a hammer to desire to drive in nails. "To drive in nails" is the final cause. — Terrapin Station
Now explain that to aletheist. Aletheist thinks that the act of driving nails is the cause of the hammer. — Metaphysician Undercover
I have suggested that driving nails is the final cause of the hammer, the end for the sake of which the hammer exists, which is subsequent to the making of the hammer as a means to that end. — aletheist
Final causes cannot be confined to human desires or intentions, because things that have nothing to do with humans have them - teeth, seeds, balls, etc. - and they are likewise subsequent to the coming-into-existence of those things. — aletheist
"End" in this sense means "the thing one seeks to attain". — Metaphysician Undercover
Don't dissuade yourself from understanding by referring to preconceived notions that may or may not be relevant. — Metaphysician Undercover
Do you realize that anything done for a purpose is done with intention? — Metaphysician Undercover
Right, "to drive nails" is the final cause. Intent is implicit in the phrase "to...". "I intend to..." — Metaphysician Undercover
No, the final cause is not the intent to do something. The intent to do something is not the end or goal with respect to the hammer. — Terrapin Station
It seems like you're trying to necessarily read "cause" in the contemporary sense. Aristotle didn't use the idea that narrowly, especially not when it came to the concept of final cause. — Terrapin Station
It depends on exactly what you mean by "purpose" and "intention." I associate both of those terms with intelligent willfulness and agency. In that sense, seeds do not "seek" anything, and birds and bees do not have "purposes" even though their nests and hives indeed have final causes. — aletheist
But this is natural, because you do not believe in immaterial causes, such as the free will. So until you release this prejudice, final cause will remain inherently incomprehensible, as a cause posterior to the effect. — Metaphysician Undercover
There is no necessary association there. It is habitual usage which has made you believe that purpose is necessarily associated with intelligent willfulness. — Metaphysician Undercover
I want to find a reasonable critique of Sartre's: ''Existence precedes essence.''
Why is the statement wrong? And could it be proven wrong without using religion? — Kazuma
Do you believe that everyone else has this wrong, too--for example, the definitions/explanations I quoted re final causes earlier in the thread? — Terrapin Station
In any case, the first definition refers to "the end/goal", which is consistent with what I said, and not what aletheist says. The second definition refers to "end (telos)" and again is consistent with what I say, "intention". The third definition refers to "end or purpose", and the fourth refers to "the end, that for the sake of which". — Metaphysician Undercover
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