Oh, there was "the Democrats won't budge" too. Well, they definitely won't if everyone just rolls over. I'm not convinced that's the end of it, especially as there was no evidence provided to back up the idea that it must be.

frank
4.9k
↪Baden This is Linda Hirshman with a fuck-ton more interest in the question than you'll ever have.

From the NYT


"I’ll vote for Mr. Biden this fall.

I won’t say it will be easy. I have been writing on and agitating for women’s equality since “The Feminine Mystique” came out in 1963. I know how supposedly “liberal” men abused the sexual revolution in every imaginable way. I am unimpressed by their lip service to feminism, their Harvard degrees or their donations to feminist causes.

In 1998, I was one of a few establishment feminists to argue on behalf of Monica Lewinsky, when the unofficial representative of the movement, Gloria Steinem, threw her under the bus in the pages of The New York Times to protect Bill Clinton. I maintained my position until, two decades and a #MeToo movement later, Ms. Steinem issued a non-apology for the essay. So I hate, hate, hate to say the following.

Suck it up and make the utilitarian bargain.

All major Democratic Party figures have indicated they’re not budging on the presumptive nominee, and the transaction costs of replacing him would be suicidal. Barring some miracle, it’s going to be Mr. Biden."

She says dispense with the "gotcha" you chimps. — frank

Thank you, Frank, and my thanks to Linda Hirshman.

How these geniuses think the transition to someone else would not be political suicide is beyond me.

In any case, Joe Biden has been a pragmatic, intelligent, reasonable guy for his entire career. I not only will vote for him...I will do so with pleasure and enthusiasm.

asked for a viewpoint from posters here. I can't exactly carry on a debate with her, can I? Or do you just want me to dig up quotes from those who don't support Biden as a riposte? And there's nothing to what she said as it stands. It was "I'm a feminist and I support Biden because > utilitarianism". That's it. Period. So, what does that add to the conversation, frank? — Baden

I think you're just sore that a feminist who will outrank your concerns about sexual assault forever advocates a utilitarian approach. I wish you'd read the NYT article in full. It's incredibly poignant.

It's time you realized you have no gotcha.

Honestly, I think they're just bored.

Ah, sexual assault. Just another 'gotchya'. Like peek-a-boo with your penis. Or finger apparently. Guys it's OK its just a 'gotchya'.

The idea that this is a "gotcha" is incredibly stupid and crass. A woman says she was raped here. And then you talk about the poignancy of a feminist on an article behind a paywall. You're a mess on this.

Edit: Cross-posted, but yes, bizarre and sick.

The "it's just a gotcha" thing is so absurd it didn't even make the bingo.

Yeah I suppose it didnt occur to anyone to be an apologist of sexual assult in just that kind of manner.

Sorry about the paywall. The "gotcha" was from Linda Hirshman.


Did you see what Mark Blyth said about paywalls?

Imagine thinking the NYT - a paper for neoliberal shills - has anything of value to say on this topic.

By the way @frank, on the accusation that we're just bored because we object to powerful politicians raping and sexually assaulting women, go bleep yourself. We were both saying the same things when it came to Kavanaugh (and Trump). If you can't work out why, your loss.

I don't know if Biden can win, even with Trump telling people to drink and inject bleach in the peak of his botched pandemic response.

Biden is a gaff machine unto himself, and I'm not exactly a fan of his economic views and track record (he would rather cut medicare and medicaid than risk the ire of wealthy and corporate donors/lobbyists). He doesn't even seem to be DNC status quo; the dems get elected and try to balance the budget without dicking social programs, then a republican gets elected, hypocritically spends more than the dems (especially on military) while slashing taxes; rinse and repeat. Biden differs (is lesser) because he doesn't even seem to give a shit about not dicking the poor.

And what is with his old-school prejudice against weed?

This man is so out of touch that he simultaneously is trying to represent the will of a majority of Americans while also thinking it his moral duty to enforce his antiquated moral sentiments on the rest of us.

And the rape accusation...

"ALL WOMEN WHO SPEAK UP SHOULD BE LISTENED TO AND BELIEV-YGT^w$tg$%h$%.. ERROR- 404 123 TAKE BACKS!!!!"

Maybe it's a politically motivated false accusation; it should not end the campaign (it should be investigated asap due to the public's need for accurate information about their candidates IMO). But the fact that democratic loud and bleeding hearts are exceptionally silent on this is just loathsome. You can't kick up an ultimate fuss about rape-culture and then not look stupid when you do a full speed 180 the moment it's no longer convenient...

Long story short, Biden is at this point as difficult a sell as Hillary Clinton was, but probably worse. Trump will probably have less support this go-round, I'm just afraid it won't be enough to counteract the hoards of disenfranchised and dissatisfied potential democrats, who once more, will vote third party, or Trump, out of raw desire to spite the DNC and its self-serving system.

"WhY sAcriFiciNG 1000 ViRgINs oN tHe AlTaR oF CThULhU iS nOt As BAD aS a sECoND TruMP PreSideNCY, aND wHy iM voTinG for BiDeN"

The voter-blaming and total refusal to take responsibility on the part of democrats and their lackeys will be a bloody marvel to behold, if and when it comes to it. They're already laying down the groundwork to avoiding accountability at all costs: "vote for our man or else look what you made us do". The same logic, it turns out, as abusers of women.

accusation that we're just bored because we object to powerful politicians raping and sexually assaulting women, go bleep yourself. We were — Baden

That's actually just me trying to understand your stance on this. Otherwise I'm just laughing at your naivete.

Maybe it's a politically motivated false accusation; it should not end the campaign (it should be investigated asap due to the public's need for accurate information about their candidates IMO). But the fact that democratic loud and bleeding hearts are exceptionally silent on this is just loathsome. You can't kick up an ultimate fuss about rape-culture and then not look stupid when you do a full speed 180 the moment it's no longer convenient... — VagabondSpectre

My position is that the Dems should make a calculation based on whether the accusation is likely true or not and act on that. Because if it is, it's not going away and it's getting more credible by the day. So, yes, an accusation alone should not necessarily end a campaign, but time is running out and the Democrats are faced with a huge risk running him or a quick bloodletting by putting someone else in there (Of course, there was a huge risk anyway considering his mental state, so it could be seen as a bonus 'out' for them.)

So, the worst-case scenario in running him is a big loss and down-ballot carnage as the GOP saturate the airwaves with ads like the one street posted and the allegation gets more legs. Not only do they lose the election but they also lose any moral high ground they had over the GOP with women, and suburban moms stay at home disgusted at both parties. The worst-case scenario in running someone else is they also lose but still retain some moral integrity, which is likely to work better for them down-ballot.

I'm open to some detail on why it's impossible for the Dems to rid themselves of him, but as things stand, I'm not convinced. Apply enough pressure from the right people, including privately, and maybe he'd stand down voluntarily. Call it health reasons. Whatever. But unless he's cleared and they stick with the loathsome backflip strategy, they will fully deserve their loss in November.

"WhY sAcriFiciNG 1000 ViRgINs On the AlTaR oF CThULhU iS nOt As BAD aS a sECoND TruMP PreSideNCY, aND wHy iM voTinG for BiDeN" — VagabondSpectre

:mask:

:ok:

I guess myself and many others aren't willing to accept that we must suffer the political equivalent highway-robbery.

We all feel like Trump really needs to be defeated in November, but there is actually a cost for throwing principles to the wind. As @Baden points out:

Not only do they lose the election but they also lose any moral high ground they had over the GOP with women, and suburban moms stay at home disgusted at both parties. — Baden

Just to add to that, nationally, Biden is currently losing with men and ahead with women by 20 points. If he doesn't maintain a significant lead with women going into the election, he's a goner. The GOP are licking their lips at this.

but there is actually a cost for throwing principles to the wind — VagabondSpectre

I don't think you have a choice. Arent you Canadian?

Just to add to that, nationally, Biden is currently losing with men and ahead with women by 20 points. If he doesn't maintain a significant lead with women going into the election, he's a goner. The GOP are licking their lips at this. — Baden

This was supposed to be the candidate with the most 'electability'.

I agree. It is pathetic that I have to make this choice. A second Trump term will be a catastrophe for the US & the world. I would vote for a trained seal over Trump - provided that the trainer was a Democrat. I wish the dems could find a better candidate than Biden. — EricH

Don't bother with these morally upstanding people helping to re-elect Trump. In their minds, if you vote Biden you're just as bad as Trump voters. It's really that black and white. Forget an investigation, and never mind that you're not a democrat, not a Biden fan at all, would be glad to see an investigation and him dropping out of the race -- forget even how dangerous another 4 years of Trump is, etc. etc. -- that's too nuanced to consider.

The only logical solution? Don't vote or vote third party. Because both are "rapists." Also, ignore the fact that this strategy will also elect an alleged rapist -- one who's administration denies climate science (and any science they don't like) while in the midst of an environmental crisis and pandemic. Doesn't matter. Got to teach the DNC a lesson.

Notice too that the position has shifted. Now it's all about "rape." Why? Because it's far easier to take a righteous stand on that -- ergo, it happened; they're certain of it (because they have to be): Biden is a rapist. Now that this has been established as an axiom, they can go on chastising those even considering voting for him.

Pathetic.

Doesn't matter. Got to teach the DNC a lesson. — Xtrix

They don't care. It's psychopathy at this point in the DNC.

Anyone not doing everything he/she can to finally vote Trump out of office...is taking a dump on the Republic.

Get off your nonsense.

Oh, so you're in favor of rape. Got it.

See how easy it is? This level of argument in a philosophy forum is truly pathetic.

They don't care. It's psychopathy at this point in the DNC. — Shawn

No, I don't think it is psychopathology. I loathe Trump; I dislike Biden. BUT, by and large, both parties and both candidates are rational servants of the class to whom they are indebted. Neither Trump or Biden is going to piss off the capitalist elite by doing anything rashly destructive to their interests.

Third party? I wish there was a third party of strength and substance. It would have to be very large and very effective indeed to push out both the democrats and republicans, and we don't have a parliamentary system, so winning some seats doesn't help much.

Not only are we stuck in a possibly long lasting pandemic, we're stuck in a global climate crisis and we have the misfortune of being born into mature and hegemonic, maybe late stage capitalism. Being late stage capitalism doesn't mean they'll be going anywhere soon. We are stuck, we are fucked. Short of the revolution or Econo-eco-politico-socio-religio-etcio collapse, nothings going to change

Oh, so you're in favor of rape. Got it. — Xtrix

And what are you doing to lift the level? Not much. Get it.

Strawman. I've made it clear Biden is an:

accused rapist — Baden

with the accusation being credible and gaining credibility recently. Which is exactly the situation. The rest of your post doesn't rise above a cartoon version of what your opposition is saying. I've never, for example, said everyone who will end up voting for Biden supports rape or is an apologist for rape. If you want to challenge any of that, you better quote me or consider yourself corrected.

As for your friend Frank, @Xtrix:

But if it were a choice between an accused pedophile Joe Biden and Trump...

...I would choose Biden before Trump in an instant. — Frank Apisa

Any comment on that hypothetical? Do you see anything potentially wrong with making a credibly accused pedophile, President? The point here is to highlight the fact that at some point, the character of the person elected must matter.

(Some random thoughts, opinions, questions, and possibly a few facts about the Biden scandal... )

1. RAPE, SEXUAL ASSAULT, AND HARASSMENT ARE BAD, ILLEGAL, AND WRONG. THOSE COMMITTING THEM SHOULD BE PUNISHED. (Just want to be crystal clear about that).

2. Damn... 1993 was a looooong time ago. @Shawn , were you even born then? Lol.

3. If I’m getting the story (or whatever) straight, Ms Reade at the time (in 1993) filed a complaint about inappropriate shoulder touching, unwanted closeness, and the like. (No surprise here, Joe has been on video countless times doing similar creepy things to numerous women, unfortunately.). This would definitely qualify as harassment. BUT... no PUBLIC mention of any rape or sexual assault by Ms Reade until a couple months ago. Why?

4. In the USA, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. These are serious accusations, of course. Accusations that would warrant a prison sentence if true. There should be a serious inquiry or trial. Public testimony under oath.

5. Fortunately or not, there are only two people who saw what transpired that day in question. And one them doesn’t have the memory capacity he used to.

6. Let’s suppose that Biden is forced to step down from the nomination because of his actions. Should Trump be likewise be forced to not run for a second term, because of his multiple sexual assault accusations (which he has gleefully admitted to)?

7. Like many here, I have wanted Bernie Sanders all along. But I get the impression that the DNC would rather have a wounded and tarnished Biden over a man who is willing to upend the medical, insurance, and pharmaceutical industries. Sanders is not a puppet on a string, much to their dismay.

8. I’m definitely NOT voting for Trump. He is indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of US citizens, imho. (On top of his other bad characteristics and actions). Who I vote for, or if I even vote at all, remains to be seen. The system is broken, and it is depressing and nauseating. I am not sure if those living in countries other than the USA really can completely feel that. Though I appreciate any objective and thoughtful critique.