Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Most people see Judas as a traitor in the myth of the crucifixion. Few recognize that Jesus was asking his most trusted disciple, Judas, to turn him over to the Jews and Pilate.

Most are unaware of the meaning of the sop that Jesus gave to Judas at the last supper. Without knowing the definition and meaning of that word, it is not surprising that most think of Judas as they do. The completely wrong way.

A sop is basically a gift or conciliatory bribe, something that seals a deal. That is what Jesus gave Judas, his most trusted disciple. We know he was Jesus’ favorite because he was Jesus’ banker.

Dictionary reference for sop.
Something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc.
A conciliatory gift or bribe.

Without the betrayal, Jesus would not have died for us, as Yahweh had planned, and scriptures say that Judas also had no choice as that would have derailed god’s plan.

If any blame for Jesus’ death is to be given, it must be to Yahweh, whose plan, scriptures say must come to pass. Meaning that Yahweh would have to control all the players including Judas.

Scriptures show Jesus persuading Judas to do what he would not ordinarily have thought of doing.

Judas believed that Jesus was the messiah who was to rise again to lead the Jews. This lie imposed by Yahweh.

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?

Regards
DL

Frank Apisa

Judas is indispensable to the story...to the myth, if you will.

Without Judas...there is no story.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

I agree. That makes him the hero.

If he was not, then the other disciples would be seen as really stupid for just sitting there while knowing that he was on his way to turn Jesus in.

Regards
DL

prothero

"I came because I had to; I'm the one who saw.
Jesus can't control it like he did before.
And furthermore I know that Jesus thinks so too.
Jesus wouldn't mind that I was here with you.
I have no thought at all about my own reward.
I really didn't come here of my own accord."
Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar/ Dammed For All Time/Blood Money

Judas was a little of all three (we humans are complex). He justified his actions in his own mind just as we all justify our own less than noble actions on a daily basis.

TheMadFool

Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

This question reminds me of the following, probably fictional, conversation that I'll try my best to recall as accurately as possible.

X: Surely, I can be sure of my feelings.
W: Why?
X: It's so natural
W: People once thought the sun went around the earth. Why?
X: Because it's natural - it looks like the sun moving across the sky
W: Then answer me this. How would it look if the earth went around the sun?
X: I see what you mean.

Judas is both blessed and cursed for the picture we have of him is this: File%3AKaninchen_und_Ente.svg

Rabbit or Duck? Traitor or most trusted disciple?

Sorry I can't post pictures.

Marchesk

↪Gnostic Christian Bishop

The Gospel of Judas portrays Judas as the only one understanding the teachings of Jesus, and by betraying him, Judas was freeing Jesus from the flesh so he could return to the true Father.

A really interesting possibility that the biblical scholar Margaret Barker raises is that Gnosticism has it's roots in the pre-Jewish religion of Israel, and that it wasn't just importing the ideas of other religions into early Christianity.

The Gnostics and Paul have been misunderstood as incorporating pagan beliefs, instead of further evolving ideas already available in Jewish beliefs. It's the monotheists who deviated (reformed) the older religion.

Deleteduserrc

Borges did a really great treatment of this

Gnostic Christian Bishop

He justified his actions in his own mind — prothero

This is true, as well as of all the other apostles who sat and did nothing to change Jesus' mind and attempt to prove the myth of a savior to be real. He failed.

Judas was a little of all three (we humans are complex). He justified his actions in his own mind just as we all justify our own less than noble actions on a daily basis. — prothero

What is less noble about helping a friend accomplish his mission of suicide?

I see that as more noble.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Sorry I can't post pictures. — TheMadFool

Then you ignore the story and how it is laid out.

Do you think the other apostles even know what was going on?

I think they either did and agreed with Jesus, er they were really stupid and did not understand what Jesus was all about.

If Judas was a traitor, then all the apostles were.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

It's the monotheists who deviated (reformed) the older religion. — Marchesk

I agree with your sourse of early Gnostic Christianity. Chrestian Greeks and esoteric Jews seem to be the ones who gave birth to Christianity, --- after Christianity usurped their god, --- the same way that usurped the Jewish god and made him Christian.

Christianity was corrupted from it's earliest form. Just looking at the antics of the first few popes tell us that quite clearly.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Borges did a really great treatment of this — csalisbury

True, but he did not know where to land. My position, which seems to be the correct one.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool

↪Gnostic Christian Bishop

Mainstream christianity seems to treat Judas as a traitor, that's for sure. I don't see how anyone could defend Judas with all the evidence stacked against him like that. Consider this though: who, if anyone, could've known the way things would pan out between Jesus and Judas and also be in a position of power to make Judas change his decision to betray the son of god to his enemies? God?

BrianW

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I've read what is referred to as the "Gospel of Judas" (or what's left of it). I think it's deeply esoteric and, if true, it may hold within it the mystery of Judas' character as a person, as well as the symbolic expression in the relation between Jesus and twelve disciples.

This reminds me, we also don't understand who the devil/satan is as an individual and what he symbolises in the inner/greater expression of human life.

And there seems to be more to the crucifixion plan than the disciples knew because Jesus refers to Peter as Satan when he refuses to accept Jesus' suffering and eventual death:

Jesus turned around and said to Peter, "Get away from me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my way, because these thoughts of yours don't come from God, but from human nature." — Matthew 16:23 (Good News Translation)

Outlander

I'm sorry is there some verse for all this or?

If it's another book it's another topic or source. I could write a book about any topic saying anything about it but it would still be a non-original source.

Canonically though, Jesus was charged with heresy, blasphemy, threats against a synagogue, and my favorite, healing on the Sabbath (come on guys, wait til Monday to use your magical powers amirite?). The professed crimes were widely known. The role played by others seems to be a bit happenstance.

BrianW

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Perhaps, in a weird way, by helping advance the plot of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection narrative, he did right by God. From the human point of view, he seemed to fail himself - didn't he suffer a mental breakdown and commit suicide (or something)?

Deleteduserrc

True, but he did not know where to land. My position, which seems to be the correct one.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

He flubbed that one, the old goon

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Mainstream christianity seems to treat Judas as a traitor, that's for sure. I don't see how anyone could defend Judas with all the evidence stacked against him like that. Consider this though: who, if anyone, could've known the way things would pan out between Jesus and Judas and also be in a position of power to make Judas change his decision to betray the son of god to his enemies? God? — TheMadFool

Scriptures say that Yahweh never changes his mind. He chose to have Jesus die so Jesus had to die.

That means that Yahweh would have to insure that all the players involved in that killing did what Yahweh wanted them to do.

Mainstream Christianity is brain dead and morally corrupt and I do not want to believe their weird and immoral way.

I refuse to honor a genocidal and infanticidal god, even if such a foul prick existed.

The evidence for Judas being the hero is clear if you read the last supper and think about what is being said.

If he was a traitor then so were the other apostles who did nothing while knowing Judas was being sent to turn Jesus in.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

This reminds me, we also don't understand who the devil/satan is as an individual and what he symbolises in the inner/greater expression of human life.

And there seems to be more to the crucifixion plan than the disciples knew because Jesus refers to Peter as Satan when he refuses to accept Jesus' suffering and eventual death: — BrianW

I think all the disciples knew that Jesus wanted to test the messiah myth. He did and failed as he did not return to led the Jews. Peter might have been bright enough to try to talk Jesus out of it.

To your first quote.
Christians are conflicted on Satan as they sing of Adams sin as a happy fault and necessary to god's plan, yet curse Satan who insured that god's plan stayed on track.

Christians reverse the Jewish view of Satan as god's loyal opposition and helper for man and turned what Jews call Original Virtue to Original Sin.

Jews smart and consistent. Christians conflicted and stupid.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

If it's another book it's another topic or source. — Outlander

The source is the bible and Jewish traditions. I can always back up my views.

I post to lose discussions but cannot make it easy or I would be denying myself the pleasure of losing an argument fairly and lose winning overall, --- as I gain new information that is worthy of me.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

From the human point of view, he seemed to fail himself - didn't he suffer a mental breakdown and commit suicide (or something)? — BrianW

Yes. From grief apparently.

He was sure Jesus was the messiah and was willing to be his tool and turn him in to bring on the end times. Jesus failed in his testing of the old myths and never returned to led the Jews.

Jesus' failure told Judas that he had helped murder an innocent man and not a messiah and that likely broke his heart and cause him to take his own life.

You will note in the story that Satan did not enter Judas till after Jesus gave him the sop that sealed the deal.

Regards
DL

Gus Lamarch

Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Judas is an interesting figure in Christian history, because in the view of what is canonical for the church - here I'm refering to the Catholic church - he was a traitor, the bodily form of envy - and perhaps also, of greed -.

However, it seems to me that if we take into account the "historicity" of the bible, Judas was a totally distorted figure. For in times when the canonical states that Judas committed something against Jesus, it is also possible to see how only it was a disciple questioning his tactics of ministry. We could compare Judas, with the Islamic figure of Ali ibn Abi Talib - Muhammad's cousin - who was the most faithful of his followers, and also the most questioning.

The only point where they differ is the fact of kinship, and the influence they have had on their prophets. Jesus always denied the arguments of revolt against the Roman civilization that Judas had placed, but Muhammad eventually became a political figure as well as a religious one, where he fought against the infidels because of Ali's arguments - a point that will make the Islamic dominate the Mediterranean for a long time during the Middle Ages, and that would make that Islam lasted until today -.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

he was a traitor, the bodily form of envy - and perhaps also, of greed -. — Gus Lamarch

Yes, yet Christians ignore that when Jesus was chosen to die, Yahweh would have had to insure that there was someone there to turn Jesus in.

Without Judas, there would be no sacrifice and that is why I see him as Jesus' best friend.

I see a Judas who was so distraught when Jesus failed his test of the prophesies, that he killed himself.

Evil greedy people who have accomplished their plan do not kill themselves. Only a good man would.

That or the other apostles where really dumb as they just let Judas walk out after Jesus told him to do what he had to do quickly.

Regards
DL

Anaxagoras

I believe Judas was both the hero and anti-hero. In essence he sacrificed his character in the story by being the betrayer of a purely good man. However I believe it is important to note for spiritual currency sake, that Judas’ actions (according to Christian text) that he (Judas) positioned himself so that Jesus created a spiritual checkmate through his betrayal.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

If you mean Judas was key to Jesus testing the messiahs myth, I agree.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool

Judas is, at the end of the day, a tragic figure. He lost so much for what to me is next to nothing. How would you feel if you were to become the main protagonist in the capture, torture and death of the son of none other than god and all that just so that one day someone could utter the trivial truth of you being the recepient of a paltry sop? The sadness is further compounded by the fact that god would've known you were about to commit an act so obnoxious that it will neither ever be forgotten nor ever be forgiven and yet, still, god withheld his counsel from you.

Banno

Runeberg has it right; Judus was the greatest of all men, choosing damnation in order to implement God's intent; his choice and fate displays to all the immorality of that plan.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

Judas is, — TheMadFool

A fictional character who accepted the glory and task of facilitating Jesus testing the old messianic myth.

Jesus failed it and basically screwed Judas, and his belief in Jesus, over.

The sop giving is Jesus honoring Judas, even as it was making him an accomplice in his suicide.

The sop was always given to honor the recipient and seal deal.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

the immorality of that plan. — Banno

Extremely immoral, I agree, yet that immoral plan is what Christians rely on to get into heaven thanks to their lying preachers.

Try to get Christians to talk of the morality of their religion and they always run away.

They knowingly follow immoral tenets and don't care as long as that free ride out or hell is there, even if they had to murder Jesus themselves to get it.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool

A fictional character who accepted the glory and task of facilitating Jesus testing the old messianic myth.

Jesus failed it and basically screwed Judas, and his belief in Jesus, over.

The sop giving is Jesus honoring Judas, even as it was making him an accomplice in his suicide.

The sop was always given to honor the recipient and seal deal.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

The first thing I notice is that there are two parts to this problem:

1. Judas betrayed someone

2. That someone was Jesus, the son of god

The first part is doubtful because Judas may have believed that he was only aiding in the capture of an impostor and a potentially dangerous subversive out to cause trouble

The second part just blows the theory of betrayal out of the water because Jesus' divinity wasn't proven until the resurrection and that's something that happened only after Jesus' crucifixion, after the alleged "betrayal". For Judas' action to count as a betrayal it can't be that he thought he was assisting in the capture of a troublemaker but for that to be true Judas would have to know Jesus was divine but that's an impossibility for the proof of Jesus being divine - the resurrection - took place only after Judas facilitated the capture of Jesus. :chin:

interim

For me, Jesus and Judas were playing a theatre. There is important difference between Christ as an idea / consciousness / mental level, and the human called Jesus. The idea of Christ is IMO older (jews for example expect the "messiah" for many many years, and I guess few of them recognize Jesus as such). It's the Roman Christianity that is based almost exclusively on the presumption that Jesus is a god - human. This of course can be explained with the idea of the Caesar and goes back to the Egyptians where the pharaon is treated as god. Catholics took it further with the pope. On the contrary, other denomination of Christianity, like Gnostics, believed more in the metaphysical Christ (human or non human, killed or not, it didn't matter much), and some of them even claimed Jesus was an impostor. In any case, I think a differentiation must be made between the historical figure of Jesus, and the idea about the Messiah/Christ. Assuming both are the same is requirement in the official Christianity, but I can't care less what the Church says... You can't ask a pagan Church who Christ really is...

Gnostic Christian Bishop

the capture of Jesus — TheMadFool

Yep. It all stems from whether Jesus wanted to be captured or not, and to test the old prophesy of the messiah, he had to be turned in. Judas got the honor. This is clear by his being given the sop ahead of all the others and why thy just sat there sulking as Judas left on his mission for his best friend Jesus.

Regards
DL

Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

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