Are you happy to have other people follow the traffic rules only when it is useful to them?When it seems useful to me, sure. — Tzeentch
You don't win arguments by repetition. — Tzeentch
You are wrong. About almost everything. Your ideas are dangerous and if they ever become the norm, that society will be hell on Earth. I really wish there were something I could say that would help you and make a difference. Talk to a counselor or something. Unless you really are a sociopath there has to be some way for you to see value in something other than your own selfish interests. Just try. — Pro Hominem
Socialists want to spend other people's money because they think they know best. — Tzeentch
[Government is] a form of coercion: a means to force individuals to do things by threat of violence. — Tzeentch
Governments assert power over individuals based on what are essentially territorial claims, [governments are], at their basis, [...] no more legitimate than a despot — Tzeentch
And beware those who see government as a legitimate means to an end. — Tzeentch
I was raised in a upper middle class home and I used be a socialist and for much of my life I was on the left. Financially speaking everything was always taken care of for me and in seeing the wealth around me I didn't understand at a young age why poverty or homeless people had to exist. On top of that, I worked some crappy, low wage jobs with bad bosses which further solidified my allegiance to the left. My thinking was in a country as advanced and wealthy as the US, why do we still have poverty and homelessness? I was thinking about the big picture and principles first, and myself last. I also had no experience with poor people. They were just problems to be solved by giving them, as a collective, a certain amount of money or resources.
Somewhere along the line my thinking become more bottom-up. Instead of thinking about vast systemic changes to eliminate poverty, I started studying personal finance and decisions which could be made on an individual level. — BitconnectCarlos
Do you like the idea of their being penalties for other folk? Or do you think we should leave it up to other people to decide for themselves the utility of following traffic rules? — Banno
Do you support the removal of penalties so that we may each decide how to behave on the road? — Banno
More generally, are you happy for other people to also be guided by your principle: "When it seems useful to me, sure." — Banno
The point of my post was to have you think about your response. Try answering my questions, see what you think of your answers. No need to post them. — Banno
I consider government to be a form of coercion: a means to force individuals to do things by threat of violence. — Tzeentch
Keeping governments small with as little influence over individuals' private goings-on should be an active process. — Tzeentch
Every person possess some kind of ideology, the question has to do with the concrete nature of ideology.
— @JerseyFlight
Maybe in some vague, general sense everyone possesses some ideology or way of viewing the world, but not everyone is equally ideologically possessed. — BitconnectCarlos
I was promised some ultimate refutation of my position. — Tzeentch
You were refuted. You just can't see it. — Banno
Doubtless there are those who will deny that they have an ideology. I'd consider that an inability to see themselves as embedded in a society. My critique of Tzeentch follows that line. — Banno
You think the fact you recognize other have rights, money and property renders your insistence on having your own rights, money and property unselfish? I don't think that works. — Ciceronianus the White
For our purposes here it might be worth first seeing ideology not as something one possess, as you suggest, but rather as a way of seeing; a looking-glass through which one interprets and understands social practices. — Banno
... That's a sign that there are major systemic problems, not just a bunch of personal failures. — Pfhorrest
I don't stop at a red light when there's no traffic to be seen, and I have no issue with people using their own judgement to do the same. — Tzeentch
That’s irresponsible because, if you look at driving like a skill, it forms a bad habit that puts yourself and other motorists at risk. Much of the mundane tasks in our lives are done on autopilot, so you’re basically training yourself (and your ‘autopilot’) badly. Again that’s irresponsible, which indicates an abuse of your freedom, and suggests that you’re not worthy of it. — praxis
Also, as I initially touched on, there’s the issue of who pays for the traffic lights, roadways, the land they occupy, etc. If they’re not paid for with taxation then you would have to pay a private party or parties in order to travel. Either way you have to pay. — praxis
I value freedom. Not wealth necessarily. I know there's no way of getting this message across, because you seem to have already decided I must be a terrible person for having different ideas.
One can be selfless without having to be forced by government.
I'll leave it at that. — Tzeentch
Calling me unworthy of freedom based on the minimal interaction we've had seems rather silly, and it's hardly a decent way to start a conversation. Your earlier comment seemed reasonable enough, so why not continue in that way? — Tzeentch
You were talking about a dangerous (to yourself and others) habit — praxis
Living in society requires cooperation. Ideally, the cooperation is mutually beneficial. In order for the cooperation to be mutually beneficial, the more autonomous a citizen is the more responsible they would have to be. If a citizen just wants to freeload and take advantage of the cooperative nature of a society they can be as irresponsible as they like, at least until their freedom is curtailed. — praxis
You were talking about a dangerous (to yourself and others) habit
— praxis
I fail to understand how using one's own eyes to see is a dangerous habit. I wish more people would engage in it. — Tzeentch
Okay, I am mostly on board with this. Freedom requires individuals to take personal responsibility, sure. In view of this, how do you look at the fact that individuals do not choose the society they are born in, nor do they choose to be born in the first place? — Tzeentch
I can't tell what the point of the question is. I'll say that we're a social species and as such are born with moral intuitions. We're also largely shaped by whatever society we happen to be raised in and part of that shaping is developing a moral framework, which is based on our moral intuitions. There are moral frameworks, for example, that prioritize the moral intuition of liberty vs oppression, such as Libertarianism. Other frameworks favor other moral intuitions. — praxis
The biggest of which is capitalism itself, which certainly coerces you into working, decides your worth and whether you're even valuable enough to be
getting paid in the first place. — Judaka
Capitalism doesn't coerce you by forcing you to do something, it coerces you by restricting you to such few options that to say you aren't be coerced into choosing one of them seems like semantics. — Judaka
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