I would tell the guy that posed the choice wtf he means because it’s not like Chinese people can’t conceive of scientific theories or British people can’t conceive of meditation. It’s not like these discoveries are inherent in the geographic configuration of a bunch of rocks. If I look from the opposite side the East is the West and the West is the East.
I think a better question would be “Do you think the answer to our suffering is primarily fixing the world or primarily configuring our mind?” To which I would answer “I don’t care which one is “primary” just do both as efficiently as possible” — khaled
Because they want to know that all their suffering has some purpose behind it, that there is someone or something that will make everything right at the end, that world is not just a bunch of floating rocks indifferent to their suffering. Heaven is a bonus. Idk about Christianity but at least in Islam it is emphasized that one shouldn’t follow Islam for the Heaven but only do so when they can have full faith in its teachings. It is said that if you’re just a Muslim because you think you have to be or else you’ll suffer that you’re not a real Muslim and that God would rather see you continue questioning the faith until you’re convinced rather than harbor doubt in your mind which you muffle because you want to get into heaven. — khaled
How did you cope with that? — TheMadFool
suffering is bad. — TheMadFool
in some warped sense, is also good. — TheMadFool
Anyways I don’t care to debate this detail anymore because we can at least agree that the Kalama Sutta applies. — khaled
On the other hand, you know what they call someone who tries to reform Buddhist doctrine?
— praxis
Where did this come from? Who’s trying to reform Buddhist doctrine? — khaled
Saying “do both” in this case does not make me a two timing jerk unless you consider Eastern and Western views people. I’m a practical guy so that’s my answer — khaled
*can be coped with or eliminated* is what I said. Not that it is good. — khaled
I put in a condition you're ignoring. — TheMadFool
In what sense do you mean "can be coped with or eliminated" — TheMadFool
Whanaungatanga refers to the building and maintenance of relationships. It’s the process of establishing meaningful, reciprocal and whānau or family-like relationships through cultural respect, connectedness and engagement.
Manaakitanga describes sharing, hosting and being generous. It supports collaborative research and evaluation and helps knowledge flow both ways between researcher/evaluator and participant.
Aroha means love but it also means respect. Treating people with respect means allowing them control: where to meet and on their own terms, and when to meet. Aroha also relates to the information collected. You should let the participant decide what information will become public and what will stay confidential. They can also choose whether to participate anonymously.
Mahaki is about showing humility when sharing knowledge. Mahaki reminds us to share knowledge and experiences to understand each other better and to foster trust in the research or evaluator relationship.
Mana relates to power, dignity and respect. Kaua e takahia te mana o te tangata “Do not trample on the mana or dignity of a person”. People are the experts on their own lives, including their problems, needs and aspirations. Look for ways to work together.
Titiro, whakarongo, kōrero means to look, listen and then speak. When researching and evaluating it’s important to look and listen to develop understanding and find a place to speak from. You need to take time to understand people’s day-to-day realities, priorities and aspirations. This will make your questions relevant to the participant.
Kia Tupato is being cautious. You need to be politically savvy, culturally safe, and reflective about your insider or outsider status. Staying safe might mean working with elders and others in the community who can guide your research and evaluation.
He kanohi kitea means being a familiar face. You should seek to be involved with communities and familiar to them to build trust and communication
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I think a better question would be “Do you think the answer to our suffering is primarily fixing the world or primarily configuring our mind?” — khaled
The main thing a Buddhist hopes to do by meditating is to understand how his/her own mind is constructed. — khaled
And there is no philosophy, theology or psychology which will end all future suffering. — Hippyhead
But otherwise I agree with everything. — khaled
Actually, meditators may also try the "get used to it" method to overcome a personal problem. I once worked with a man who flew-in from California to open a local aerial mapping office. On his first day in town, he realized that he was coming down with the flu. Since he didn't have "time" to treat the symptoms in the usual way --- bed rest, etc --- he decided to meditate on the symptoms themselves. As he related it, he experienced the flu intensely for about an hour. And then, having "gotten used to them", the symptoms abated, so he could get back to work setting-up his new office.One technique employed in psychology is graded exposure in which a person with a phobia is made to face the object of his/her fears in slow incremental steps of intensity. The idea behind this is simply, "get used to it". No arguments are made about the nature of fear itself. Why we fear? is left unanswered. — TheMadFool
don't just passively experience the pain, be the pain — Gnomon
These modern therapies don't require any religious commitments, but simply a buy-in to a "philosophical" perspective on suffering, similar to Buddhism and to Stoicism. — Gnomon
The closest western philosophcal doctrine to buddhism that I can think of is stiocism. Stoicism actually tries to do the same thing so now that I think about it maybe IT was the first rather than psychoanalysis but phsychoanalysis is definitely closer in terms of "methodology". It tries to figure out what to do about being in such a terrible world in terms of what you should do with your mind. — khaled
The main thing a Buddhist hopes to do by meditating is to understand how his/her own mind is constructed. — khaled
But as he/she understands more about the mind they become able to perscribe people certain meditations that help alleviate their stress just like a personal trainer perscribes a workout schedule. It will work regardless of whether or not you understand why.
That's the same as psychoanalysts... — khaled
Other than that the west seems to have largely tried to deal with this issue by changing the world itself. That is the key. The East tries to deal with this problem by configuring our minds so as to deal with it best. Just look at the second noble truth, to the East the problem is in the mind not the world. The West tries to deal with the problem by "fixing" the world (results vary from crusades to scientific revolution, handle with care).
I think that's part of the reason why the scientific revolution showing how insignificant we are, and the weakening of the belief in God caused such a massive void in the West which existentialists, absurdists and Co tried to fix. You hardly hear of existentialism in the East. That's because in The East there was no belief that the world needs to be fixed for us to be able to live in it, no need for mankind to be the centrepiece of the world for it to be worth it, it was always believed that the world is fine and we should just fix ourselves to deal with it. — khaled
Notice how most Eastern religions don't have any sort of afterlife or "great quest" or purpose or destination baked in unlike most Western religions and myths. You can argue Nirvana is... — khaled
... but a Buddhist will never tell you "You must seek Nirvana". Nirvana is a state of enlightenment but there is no pressure to get there unless one personally thinks it's worth it. Unlike heaven where the only altenative is eternal damnation. — khaled
Should I cheer whatever someone posts because they merely participated — praxis
You've demonstrated that you like other people to type things you can object to. — Hippyhead
:chin:If you'll allow me to reframe the question: Which of the existing religions is closest to the spirit of philosophy? — TheMadFool
:cool:... ask 180 Proof about how pessimism is the only realistic attitude to adopt. Hint: entropy. Always indebted to you 180 Proof. — TheMadFool
@TheMadFool was referring to another thread discussion where I'd posted this quoteDear 180 Proof,
How is pessimism the only realistic attitude to adopt? — praxis
and pointed out that the total entropy - disorder - of the universe never decreases, which describes everything inexorably decaying, running down, collapsing, and freezing in "cosmic heat death" in the end. Things fall apart locally & cosmically no matter what we do (whereby "all doings", in fact, contribute to, as they themselves are manifest by, things falling apart). Asymmetry of pain over pleasure; asymmetry of breaking-destruction over making-creation; asymmetry ("arrow") of time ... loss, extinction, oblivion ... future over past.The only ism that has justified itself is pessimism — George Orwell
(emphasis is mine)I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away. — Percy Bysshe Shelley, 1818
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