Modern science tells us that not every single event can be predicted, and that kinda points to the indeterminist world view. In this context, determinism bears the burden of proof. — Olivier5
Scientific theories suggest the some quantum scale events might possibly be not determined and you take that as reason to presume every pairing of cause and effect in the world is indeterminate unless proven otherwise? — Isaac
Just saying: the evidence so far points to indeterminism. — Olivier5
What's your evidence that the present state of affairs in the universe - our discussion here included -- was fully predetermined as early a split-second after the Big Bang? — Olivier5
All the evidence we have so far, from classic physics to just plain experience, is that this resolves somehow to almost complete determinism at human scales. — Isaac
I don't think so. Complex systems -- eg living organisms -- are not fully deterministic. — Olivier5
Your brain is made of quanta. Everytime you see fluorescence, you see a quantic phenomenon. Evolution works through mutations which are mostly due to radioactivity, a quantic phenomenon. Hence mutations can't be predicted. Etc etc. — Olivier5
You seem to have taken some sketchy and speculative theories at the fringe of very specific fields and decided that their existence should shift the presumption of cause and effect on which our entire interaction with the world is built. I just wonder if it's worth it. — Isaac
QM is a little more than "a sketchy and speculative fringe theory", I think. — Olivier5
Your philosophy is quite classical, verging on the medieval sometimes. Mine is more current. — Olivier5
Your philosophy is quite classical, verging on the medieval sometimes. Mine is more current. — Olivier5
Although brains obey quantum mechanics, they do not seem to exploit any of its special features. Molecular machines, such as the light-amplifying components of photoreceptors, pre- and post-synaptic receptors and the voltage- and ligand-gated channel proteins that span cellular membranes and underpin neuronal excitability, are so large that they can be treated as classical objects. — Koch C., Hepp K. (2006). Quantum mechanics in the brain. Nature
Yeah, I can't really stand "...therefore X doesn't exist" conclusions (where X is some common feature of our language). I think, 'well what on earth have we all been talking about all this time then?'. — Isaac
‘Free will’ is the conventional name of a topic that is best discussed without reference to the will. It is a topic in metaphysics and ethics as much as in the philosophy of mind. Its central questions are ‘What is it to act (or choose) freely?’, and ‘What is it to be morally responsible for one’s actions (or choices)?’ These two questions are closely connected, for it seems clear that freedom of action is a necessary condition of moral responsibility, even if it is not sufficient. — Strawson, RET
We weren't talking about QM. We were talking about theories where it doesn't just resolve into determinism at the scale of biological processes. — Isaac
We are talking here about determinism in the context of behavioural causality or neurological decision-making processes. What 'current' experts use your approach? — Isaac
Sometimes you may want to conclude that what we've been talking about all this time is not what we thought it was, or that it's just not a well-formed concept, and we may be better off leaving it alone than trying to precisify it with philosophy. — SophistiCat
the concept of free will is heterogeneous and inconsistent. — SophistiCat
More importantly, those aspects of free will that matter to us - responsibility being foremost - can be dealt with on their own, with no reference to free will. That is, if you want to consider whether we are morally responsible in such and such circumstances (e.g. when our actions are physically determined by an earlier state of the universe), why not just talk about that? Why confuse matters by bringing up something that no one is quite sure about? — SophistiCat
I am not aware on any scientific theory saying that the fundamental indeterminism of quantum mechanics resolves somehow into determinism at the biological scale. — Olivier5
Quantum biochemistry is a thing but unfortunately not one I know a lot about. — Kenosha Kid
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