However, based on 50 years of interest in such topics, my best guess is that such transformations are so rare as to be largely irrelevant to most people. You know, while Mozart could teach me how to play piano, he could never teach me to be another Mozart. — Hippyhead
Well ok, but as Praxis might reasonably squawk, get back to us when you can prove that enlightenment is possible. Not just in theory, not just for you or somebody else, but for us too. — Hippyhead
You appear to believe as all religious followers believe: that their religion delivers on its promise and all others are false (no other religious practice can be abandoned because they’re all false).
— praxis
Sure, though I don't understand the part of your post that's in parentheses. — TLCD1996
The point, in the end once more, is that these things are unworthy of attachment and aren't worth hanging onto. — TLCD1996
I'm curious: what's your purpose for calling it a religion or philosophy? — TLCD1996
And do you think that faith in one's philosophy of choice would render it a religion? — TLCD1996
I'm currently interested in stoicism and have a kind of shmuckish practice going. Stoicism is not a religion because though there are authorities, there's no hierarchical ultimate authority. Also, there's no metaphysics that are essential to the philosophy/practice. In religion, metaphysics and ultimate authority go hand in hand and are both essential. — praxis
There's a lot to unpack there that seems to be glossed over in a "religion or philosophy" argument. — TLCD1996
But isn't Stoicism based on a premise that reason is divine? — TLCD1996
Any way, I think from the Buddhist perspective, the question of "philosophy or religion" isn't really all that important — TLCD1996
What to me is a striking difference is that in Buddhism, heaven isn't the main objective (like in all religions). — TheMadFool
If somebody's interested in practicing or really learning about Buddhism, perhaps they should consider that a lot more can be learned by putting down the concepts and ideas and just going to bare bones basics. — TLCD1996
The "perennial philosophy" is in this context defined as a doctrine which holds [1] that as far as worth-while knowledge is concerned not all men are equal, but that there is a hierarchy of persons, some of whom, through what they are, can know much more than others; [2] that there is a hierarchy also of the levels of reality, some of which are more "real," because more exalted than others; and [3] that the wise men of old have found a "wisdom" which is true, although it has no empirical basis in observations which can be made by everyone and everybody; and that in fact there is a rare and unordinary faculty in some of us by which we can attain direct contact with actual reality - through the Prajñāpāramitā of the Buddhists, the logos of Parmenides, the Sophia of Aristotle and others, Spinoza's amor dei intellectualis, Hegel's Vernunft, and so on; and [4] that true teaching is based on an authority which legitimizes itself by the exemplary life and charismatic quality of its exponents. — Edward Conze
I see that in many of your posts. — Wayfarer
But in the popular imagination, heaven and Nirvāṇa are often equated. In popular Asian PureLand Buddhism, the accepted aim of the faith is rebirth in Suhkavati, the 'realm of bliss' from where rebirth in Nirvāṇa is then assured. This is to be taken as an article of faith resulting in calm assurance (shin-jin).
One a different note - the Eastern ideal (if it's an ideal) of liberation, moksha, nirodha, is elusive, precisely because it's non-verbal. It arises from a kind of gnostic insight into the fetters that bind the personality to the wheel of transmigration. Is that religion? Yes and no. It requires a kind of religious dedication and spiritual purity, but it's rather different to mainstream Western religion. It's the 'religion of yoga' (not in the sense of physical postures but of purificatory practices and renunciation.)
Western culture is very hung up on religion - same as Victorian culture used to be about sex - because of the history of religion in the West. There were massive conflicts fought over religion in European history. Arguably the Catholic Church was a model for authoritarianism in some important respects. So this has lead to a massive cultural back-lash along the lines of 'anything but God'. Ideas associated with religion are rejected or suppressed, and the West continually tries to re-invent itself without reference to them. I see that in many of your posts. That is not a personal slight or pejorative, it is a consequence of the culture we inhabit. 'Don't mention the War!' — Wayfarer
Truly, a lot about Buddhism is putting aside that kind of idealism; we're not so much trying to be like The Buddha or Ajahn Mun as much as we are trying to investigate what "being" is; not in terms of a definition, but the actual experience (and it turns out what we "are" is informed by our tendency to define things conceptually). It's important that we investigate that tendency to want to "be" like "somebody" and work with what we've actually got right here; meditatioj isn't easy when you're trying to be something different than what you already "are". Meditation is best done with an attitude of contentment, though contentment with a sense of aspiration and dispassion. — TLCD1996
I think a lot of similarities can be found between Buddhism and what you describe in your post above about nature — TLCD1996
I don't really think it's my responsibility to prove it (enlightenment) — TLCD1996
The only reason I have faith besides my own practice and views is the fact that I have met people who I would call good examples. — TLCD1996
At some point, one's just got to go for it and see what happens. — TLCD1996
Didn't run into Rousseau there by any chance? Or Margeret Mead? — Wayfarer
Western culture is very hung up on religion - same as Victorian culture used to be about sex - because of the history of religion in the West. There were massive conflicts fought over religion in European history. Arguably the Catholic Church was a model for authoritarianism in some important respects. So this has lead to a massive cultural back-lash along the lines of 'anything but God'. Ideas associated with religion are rejected or suppressed, and the West continually tries to re-invent itself without reference to them. — Wayfarer
I'm tempted to take this as evidence that Buddhism is, as some might come to believe, not just a unique religion but is actually something entirely different, a philosophy perhaps?! — TheMadFool
The point is no other "religion" can be adapted in similar fashion to modern theoretical frameworks of the human mind. — TheMadFool
Ok, no problem, so dump that which isn't working. In the dumpster the ideology goes, and we walk away. Christianity also has a lot to say about the experience of love. One could explore that without believing in God, without joining any club, without labeling oneself as Christian or anything else. — Hippyhead
Maybe what it's telling you is that your definition of what constitutes religion is too narrow. — Wayfarer
With the caveat that it ought not to be 'adapted' at the cost of bending it to fit the procrustean bed of secular humanism, which is more alien to Buddhism than is traditional Christianity. — Wayfarer
but whatever it is, has to be something that puts demands on you, that requires your attention, not something that simply pleases you. — Wayfarer
If you approach Buddhism as a religion then it will be one. If you approach it as a science then it will be one. — FrancisRay
For me Buddhism would be a religion, a science, an art and a philosophy, same as all the 'mystical' traditions. To see them as just one of these would be to miss their significance and sell them short. — FrancisRay
But dangling the carrot of enlightenment may help keep the donkey moving forward, just as the carrot of future good health may motivate us to manage our diet. . . . . — FrancisRay
For me Buddhism would be a religion, a science, an art and a philosophy, same as all the 'mystical' traditions. To see them as just one of these would be to miss their significance and sell them short. . . — FrancisRay
Mahayana Buddhism represents an interpretation for quantum mechanics and a solution for all philosophical problems. It is about truth and knowledge and can easily defend itself as a method for acquiring it. — FrancisRay
Buddhism is rather more sophisticated than a hammer.. — FrancisRay
What I'm getting at is that modernity, 'being modern', is in some ways an existential plight. Pre- moderns had a different mindset and relationship with the world, as they intuitively felt a kinship to it - not that they would have expressed it that way, or even been aware of it. — Wayfarer
Western culture is very hung up on religion - same as Victorian culture used to be about sex - because of the history of religion in the West. There were massive conflicts fought over religion in European history. Arguably the Catholic Church was a model for authoritarianism in some important respects. So this has lead to a massive cultural back-lash along the lines of 'anything but God'. Ideas associated with religion are rejected or suppressed, and the West continually tries to re-invent itself without reference to them. I see that in many of your posts. That is not a personal slight or pejorative, it is a consequence of the culture we inhabit. 'Don't mention the War! — Wayfarer
But what happens if the donkey never gets the carrot? — Hippyhead
This is like saying that only seeing a hammer as a hammer, rather than a paperweight or artwork, sells it short. A hammer is designed to be a hammer and best fulfills its purpose in being used as a hammer. Indeed, using it as a paperweight sells it short and mistakes its significance. — praxis
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