I've written an essay last year about whether we honestly judge others as incels or whether we actually apply a different set of criteria to them. In brief, I argue that "incel" is just used as a synonym for "young single white male loser". Not sure if its appropriate but here's the link to my essay. It's rather long and at times tangential to the discussion in this post, but whatever:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ycPZPrhkYZgxYj5EpGQ4VSTnxF7y_ivYJ2npjVapCmw/edit?usp=sharing

I've written an essay last year about whether we honestly judge others as incels or whether we actually apply a different set of criteria to them — Garth

You seem to be missing the fact that "incel" isn't predominantly a slur we use for others. People self-described as "incels" first. In a convoluted way, to the incels, being as they are is a badge of honor.

So the central premise of the essay seems misguided, and it's definition of what an "incel" is seems to bear little resemblance to how members of incel communities describe themselves and their views.

You seem to be missing the fact that "incel" isn't predominantly a slur we use for others. People self-described as "incels" first. In a convoluted way, to the incels, being as they are is a badge of honor.

So the central premise of the essay seems misguided, and it's definition of what an "incel" is seems to bear little resemblance to how members of incel communities describe themselves and their views. — Echarmion

How we describe the incel is one thing and how the incel describes himself is another thing. I don't think that my essay really requires me to address the details of the way incels describe themselves since it is really about how we describe incels.

How we describe the incel is one thing and how the incel describes himself is another thing. I don't think that my essay really requires me to address the details of the way incels describe themselves since it is really about how we describe incels. — Garth

How are you going to talk about incels, or talk about talking about incels, without first establishing who you consider an incel and why?

Are you talking about the people labeled "incel" by others? Then your essay seems to lack any actual examination of just who is called an incel. You pretty quickly claim that when we say "incel" we really mean "looser", but how do you arrive at that conclusion?

You pretty quickly claim that when we say "incel" we really mean "looser", but how do you arrive at that conclusion? — Echarmion

It's an analysis of merit. Basically, you could take two people with the same misogynistic attitudes and obsession with punani, but it is the one who is the critic or social outcast who we denigrate as an "incel" while the one who enters a predetermined "acceptable" social channel (soldier, corporate slave, or expatriate) gets a green ticket to be treated differently.

You know, it's ironic you ask me for reasoning when you didn't bother to look at my essay.

You know, it's ironic you ask me for reasoning when you didn't bother to look at my essay. — Garth

You could point out to me where you justify your view. To me it seems like a naked claim, a premise that is taken as granted from the start.

You could point out to me where you justify your view. To me it seems like a naked claim, a premise that is taken as granted from the start. — Echarmion

1. If I justify my view, I simply offer another set of premises which are equally unjustified. You may refer to Aristotle's Prior Analytics for a discussion of the possibilities involved.

2. If you ask me to justify a definition, what form would the argument take such that the definition itself is justified? Ultimately, I can only point to usage, in which case I provide just such a justification immediately above the part of my post which you quoted. Furthermore I wrote an entire essay on the subject, which you are ignoring the existence of. At this point you are arguing in bad faith and doing nothing but harassing me. Honestly you should stop.

1. If I justify my view, I simply offer another set of premises which are equally unjustified. You may refer to Aristotle's Prior Analytics for a discussion of the possibilities involved. — Garth

You're making an empirical claim. About how people use a term, what they associate with it and what their motivations are.

2. If you ask me to justify a definition, what form would the argument take such that the definition itself is justified? — Garth

But it's not a definition. You're not saying "I define incel as a looser". You're describing how other people supposedly see the issue and what causes these views. Those are claims for which you can - and should - supply evidence.

Furthermore I wrote an entire essay on the subject, which you are ignoring the existence of — Garth

I have looked through your essay. It doesn't discuss the actual usage of the word beyond a single example. And even in that single example your explanation of what's going on is highly questionable.

It's really quite clear that your essay takes the worldview often expressed by incels as it's starting point, and really seems intended for their consumption.

You're making an empirical claim. About how people use a term, what they associate with it and what their motivations are. — Echarmion

Can you provide evidence that I'm making an empirical claim?

But it's not a definition. You're not saying "I define incel as a looser". You're describing how other people supposedly see the issue and what causes these views. Those are claims for which you can - and should - supply evidence. — Echarmion

According to whom? You? I don't particularly care about your opinion. So I don't see why I should provide evidence for my claims to you.

I have looked through your essay. It doesn't discuss the actual usage of the word beyond a single example. And even in that single example your explanation of what's going on is highly questionable. — Echarmion

If you can't identify any problems with my explanation other than calling it "questionable" and giving vague commands to me to clarify or provide evidence, you aren't bringing anything to the discussion and so should not bother typing anything out.

It's really quite clear that your essay takes the worldview often expressed by incels as it's starting point, and really seems intended for their consumption. — Echarmion

If you really intend to finish a series of demands that I do this or do that to help you to understand with the assertion that my essay is written for incels I don't know what to say or how to help you.

I argue that "incel" is just used as a synonym for "young single white male loser". — Garth

Why white? Why male, even? Not saying that these adjectives don’t work here, they do, but why do people not call ‘incels’ those young females who never get laid? And whats do we call the young black males who don’t get any? Nobody cares... they are not called anything.

This points to a sense of white male entitlement being at the core of the incel psychology. People who lack this sense of entitlement are apparently not developing this particular form of mental illness. So an incel is a young white male who thinks he deserves some but ain’t getting any.

And who or what does the incel thinks he deserves? The cutest girls of course, the ones he wanks on on his cellphone. Here is the real tragedy, because there are thousands of girls out there not getting any either... and quite a few of them because they want the cutest boys too... If only these sexually ambitious boys and girls would lower their aim a little bit (considering that the cutest girls tend to go with the cutest boys and vice versa), they would easily find a mate.

So why don’t they? Why do folks stay alone all their life rather than ‘settle’ for what they can have? The answer to this is in Houellebecq, e.g. in Extension du domaine de la lutte.

According to whom? You? I don't particularly care about your opinion. So I don't see why I should provide evidence for my claims to you. — Garth

Then what are you doing here? It's a forum. If you cannot deal with criticism, perhaps avoid inviting any.

If you can't identify any problems with my explanation other than calling it "questionable" — Garth

We might start with this paragraph:

But the problem with this narrative is that if she had not asked him out and if he was simply
sharing his rage and hatred for her at being rejected, there is no way he would garner the same
sympathy. He would be branded an incel -- that is to say an irrational hater of women. This
would suggest that the defining difference between a person expressing his pain at being hurt
by women and a person being an incel is the mere event of being unwanted by women.

For one, why would someone normally express "rage and hatred" for being rejected? That'd already be a sign of an unhealthy approach. For another, why would we then conclude the only possible reason people object to such an expression is because the person is "unwanted by women"?

What about all the other possible reasons? The unflattering portrayal of the behaviour of the woman in question? More general negative views on female promiscuity? The feeling of pity for a person that witnesses someone they love be with somebody else?

or one, why would someone normally express "rage and hatred" for being rejected? That'd already be a sign of an unhealthy approach. — Echarmion

I agree.

For another, why would we then conclude the only possible reason people object to such an expression is because the person is "unwanted by women"? — Echarmion

Because people didn't object to this man's rage and hatred in this particular instance. In fact, they offered him support. Yes, I admit that considering the counterfactual in which he wasn't then approached by the girl requires a bit of imagination, so it doesn't qualify as more than speculation. I don't claim to make an empirical claim since I'm not an empiricist nor a scientist. But I am fairly sure that if he had simply voiced complaints at a girl he likes sleeping around nobody would have said anything nice to him.

The point of my essay is this: The substantive question about incels is what phenomena in our culture produces them. Sure, we can all get together and poke holes in incel ideology but doing so is at best a waste of time and at worst completely ignoring more substantive sociological questions. Indeed, the very act of pretending to entertain the notions of their ideology only for the sake of disassembling it not only risks accidentally legitimizing it but also fails to even search for the emotional component without which it could never make sense.

As to the definition of incel, etc. I think it is a very valid self-criticism to point out, as I have in response to your question, that I am not using incel as incels label themselves. But the nature of words like this is they are not purely assigned according to self-description. Trump, for example, does not call himself a fascist nor are we likely to accept a fascist's definition of what fascism is. So I see no reason to even bother reading incel ideology. We should decide what the incel is. To me, the word 'incel' is clearly a pejorative, regardless of whether some proudly call themselves that. In this sense I can think of synonyms for "gay" or "black" or "woman" that function similarly. And most of the other people in this thread also treat it as a pejorative since you so smugly mock the ideology and speculate on the fixations of incels not for the sake of helping them but to fantasize about how you are better than them.

Why white? Why male, even? Not saying that these adjectives don’t work here, they do, but why do people not call ‘incels’ those young females who never get laid? And whats do we call the young black males who don’t get any? Nobody cares... they are not called anything.

This points to a sense of white male entitlement being at the core of the incel psychology. People who lack this sense of entitlement are apparently not developing this particular form of mental illness. So an incel is a young white male who thinks he deserves some but ain’t getting any. — Olivier5

First, I should step back from that synopsis because I hadn't thought about that essay for at least 9 months. I wrote it up quickly without looking at my own essay and didn't think it through carefully. But What exactly is the thesis of my essay? I wrote it all in one go, because I was receiving therapy at the time and my therapist turned out to be a men's rights activist who showed me the movie The Red Pill and made me read Mark Manson articles. Although I am personally a leftist, I found myself feeling sympathy for right-wing activist types and started to see them as people to be pitied rather than creatures denigrated as less-than-human as most of my (former) Antifa friends did.

So to be honest, the subject of the essay isn't incels specifically but poor, right wing activists generally.

And who or what does the incel thinks he deserves? The cutest girls of course, the ones he wanks on on his cellphone. Here is the real tragedy, because there are thousands of girls out there not getting any either... and quite a few of them because they want the cutest boys too... If only these sexually ambitious boys and girls would lower their aim a little bit (considering that the cutest girls tend to go with the cutest boys and vice versa), they would easily find a mate. — Olivier5

This is a huge question. I think that having an attractive girlfriend is a facet of the notion of "being successful" and is part of a harmful set of expectations that these men have internalized. It is roughly analogous to body image issues that women face. I know that I've personally internalized this from a young age. I feel sorry for my father having to be with my mother who is so fat and ugly in her old age. I don't see how someone could honestly say they love someone who doesn't meet some minimum level of physical attractiveness. But such a thing can't simply be explained to me, since it results from my own childhood of emotional neglect and subsequent inability to form meaningful friendships or for that matter develop emotional control.

Finally, I should mention that I'm not an incel. In fact, I'm the opposite kind of person in a way. I can't make male friends but happen to be tall, intelligent, attractive, and have slept around with a lot of women in my life.

Because people didn't object to this man's rage and hatred in this particular instance. In fact, they offered him support. Yes, I admit that considering the counterfactual in which he wasn't then approached by the girl requires a bit of imagination, so it doesn't qualify as more than speculation. I don't claim to make an empirical claim since I'm not an empiricist nor a scientist. But I am fairly sure that if he had simply voiced complaints at a girl he likes sleeping around nobody would have said anything nice to him. — Garth

So, for one your last sentence is clearly an empirical claim. But apart from that, I don't see why we need to ignore the differences between the two situation. Complaining that a person you like doesn't return your affections is one thing. Complaining that it took someone a year to figure out they like you is another.

I don't think I agree with being angry in either case, but one is certainly much more relatable than the other.

The point of my essay is this: The substantive question about incels is what phenomena in our culture produces them. — Garth

Quite. It just seems to me that your approach is a very narrow and idiosyncratic one. You are apparently very concerned with the plight of young men and the damage caused by "liberal elites". I think your conclusion is meant to fit in your pre-existing worldview.

So I see no reason to even bother reading incel ideology. We should decide what the incel is. — Garth

There is a difference between not taking people at their word and not looking at what they actually believe. If we want to find out what causes fascism, we need to look at what self-described fascists actually believe. If we're only interested in why some people call others fascist, then of course the social significance of the appellation matters.

What you seem to be interested in is not what causes incels to arrive at their own views, but rather to criticize society at large, for which calling someone an "incel" is merely a convenient example.

The notion of "incel" didn't exist back when I was younger — Pfhorrest

ya because back in the day we didnt have dating apps that women now use for hypergamy

which has created 80% of the women whoring to 20% of the men and left 80% of the guys out of luck

"Incels" are just another bad byproduct of modern feminism

but hey, these incels should be happy they dont have herpes like most modern women have by age 25 now