how do we figure out what is too much or too little masculinity — Edy

Toxic masculinity isn't about "too much" masculinity, but about a faulty construal of what constitutes masculinity. In other words, it's when men are socially pressured to do and think and feel things that are bad, both for others and for themselves, on pain of being considered "not a real man" and therefore deficient in some way.

Nobody's against men being as masculine as they want, so long as it's a healthy positive conception of "masculinity" that they're going after.

Toxic masculinity isn't about "too much" masculinity, but about a faulty construal of what constitutes masculinity. In other words, it's when men are socially pressured to do and think and feel things that are bad, both for others and for themselves, on pain of being considered "not a real man" and therefore deficient in some way.

Nobody's against men being as masculine as they want, so long as it's a healthy positive conception of "masculinity" that they're going after. — Pfhorrest

:100: Well put!

There's a point where masculinity becomes toxic, but where is that point? — Edy

When you start to suffer and make others around you suffer because you try too hard to conform to masculinity standards.

When it stops listening.

When it stops listening. — Wayfarer

That's a good one.

Drilled into me by.......never mind......

Thank her for it.

No idea. All newspeak goes directly in the lefty hogwash bin!

My guess is it's something to do with not washing your under-carriage!

37 years :smile:

But aside from the ameliorating effect of marriage, which is already noted in the OP, there’s something else that could be said. Masculinity, as a manifestation of testosterone, has an inherent drive. Male H. Sapiens are naturally primed by the four f’s of evolutionary biology - you know, feeding, fighting, fleeing or (again, never mind). That Darwinian heritage has to be de-fanged by civilisation - which is the subject of one of Freud’s great essays, Civilisation and its Discontents. He believed it was contained, albeit never perfectly, through the process of sublimation, which is to redirect those primal urges to a socially useful purpose. And that’s what politics is about. But the kind of culture we're in, pays no mind to that - in fact, it will milk frustrated masculinity for every red cent - think arms sales, and the porn industry, to mention only two.

Of course, males have to be wise to this, and hopefully most are. But our current culture and media-political environment will encourage and exploit toxic masculinity, and you see it boiling over all the time.

Civilisation and its Discontents. — Wayfarer

See edition of Commentary :rofl:

Not being from a Academical family but a daytimejob background, a family that have made the scandinavian class journey from poor agricultural workers in the 1800-s to now in my generation (me, my brother and all my cousins being either medical doctors or civil engineer) made the class journey to the academics, now living in academic/posh neighbourhoods filled with people whose grandfathers were wealth can see masculiny from probably a better viewpoint than one that has been in a family without social movements:

Masculinity has, as I see it two main areas in which to exist: The family and the world.

In the family people like those brought up in something like a republican conservative family might look back on 1958 and seeing that as the wunderland, when dad worked, mommy made food and kids were grounded if smoking.

Having a dominant father, a rather humble mother and being from something as unusual as a Scandinavias actively Christian family I had my fair share of that. My Mother died just before the Covid and my 80+ yo father had to learn stuff like washing clothes and so. That my mother did all of until the day she passed away.

This was NOT very good, especially when we were kids (way back in another millenia), and my mother just couldn´t cope with two strong-willed sons. But the kids and the home was her resposibility, dad brought the cash.

Myself being married to a woman of equal education and salary as me, we have like shared everything. I wash the dishes and have forced her to be able to fix stuff that breaks down in the house, taking care of the economy and so. That works splendidly.
Even so more, because I have a very Male view on how children should be treated and she has a very feminine one. She is kind "want to do whats best for the kids" ask them "what they want to do with their lives", while I, being from a poorer background than my wife do not tolerate any traces in my kids of being spoiled or omnipotent. My daughter and son has got a little of each, and although they do have some more sense of pressure to produce results, they seem to do good in University, and will not be drones but people that really contribute to mean human lifetime and human comfortability.

Because the other area is the world. And the world is a place which, for humans have become a tremendously much better place than in the 18th century. And it continues to be better and better. Fewer and fewer people are poor. Fewer and fewer wars are fought. For sure there are problems with ecosystems and so, but the solutions to that will be in the same area as fixed mean lifetime.

And that is where Masculinity comes in. Face it - what big contribution to human welfare has a woman´s name? What really big scientific discovery? For sure, women have not had the same chances to education and such in earlier times, but they do have those chances now. Guys do invent stuff. That testosterone, Darwin published Origin Of Species earlier than he had intended, to make sure he got the honor, other guys were on the track too.
Women do great good too, but that is more in terms of making a case for humanity. I do not doubt that the reduction in warfare can be traced back to womenly influence including suffrage.

So guys push forward and girls moderate. We see a very interesting fight on this subject among caucasians in my Scandinavian home country. Among people of education, the people that will be politically influential - The question of refugees from middle east and Africa. We have admiitted a tremendous lot of immigrants to come to our country. Something that on a humanitarian point of view seem like a good idea, but at the same time, a very large crowd of people from a totally other culture has seen a tremendous lot of problems, murder, rape, beatings of "whities" and a very large unemployment. And through that, a Racism that did not exist before. Generally, a lot of guys goes to the half nazi party that used to be like 4% and now is like 20% in our elections, while women of academy tend to vote for the red-green party that hails Greta Thunberg and want to admit an unlimited number of refugees to our country.

There, some Yin and Yang for you... The solution? Governments that can take a Yin and Yang look at stuff. In my country the feminine view has been a little too dominant for a couple of decades, while the Middle East countries would fare well with a little more, probably.

When does wokeness become toxic? :smirk:

When it stops listening. — Wayfarer

To listen is not to be a man.

:up:

Nobody's against men being as masculine as they want, so long as it's a healthy positive conception of "masculinity" that they're going after. — Pfhorrest

In other words, you can be as masculine as you want as long as your version of masculinity conforms to someone elses version if masculinity. :roll:

Should we also consider extreme feminism as a problem? What about when opposing extreme feminism is deemed extreme masculinity? This is what is happening: opposing extremism is now considered extremist.

The relationship between toxic masculinity is an interesting area. Because we could ask to whom is the masculinity toxic? In some senses it can be toxic to the man if it involves being confined to traditional interests, such as football and male orientated jobs.

On the other hand, it can be toxic on the level of toxicity which is about keeping women in their place, such as the view that women should be at home, in the kitchen, as housewives. I remember being at school and one of my teachers telling me that a lot of heated discussion took place between the teachers in the staff room, along this line.

Most people don't think any longer that men should be the breadwinners and women as housewives. However, there are some who think that way, mainly those from a generation who were taught this value. But, of course there are still some chauvinistic attitudes which are subject to scrutiny. I know one man who actually calls himself a feminist. We could ask if it makes sense to identify as a 'feminist man', or is it a contradiction in terms?

What about toxic femininity, toxic transsexuality, toxic oldness, toxic youngness, etc? It seems the bad word here is "toxic," so the moral is that you shouldn't do things that are poison or whatever toxic means.

In other words, you can be as masculine as you want as long as your version of masculinity conforms to someone elses version if masculinity. — Harry Hindu

Tbf that's true of all things. Basically: do what you want, just don't be a dick. You found God, great! Just don't be a dick about it. You like a drink, great! Just don't be a dick about it. You want to be the manliest man you can be, go for it! Just don't be a dick about it.

Toxic men reserve the right to be a dick about it.

Should we also consider extreme feminism as a problem? — Harry Hindu

Toxic women too.

Don't get me started on toxic prepubescence. Little dicks.

Masculinity becomes toxic when men begin worrying about their masculinity.

We could ask if it makes sense to identify as a 'feminist man', or is it a contradiction in terms? — Jack Cummins

I wouldn’t consider that a contradiction, since feminism is characterized by a desire for equality of the sexes. Is desiring equality a contradiction to what it means to be a man? If so, that would probably be quite a toxic thing.

As for the question posited by the OP, “toxic masculinity” to me seems to me when the expectations of masculinity limit or degrade positive social functioning. For example, when expectations of being a man prevent men from expressing emotions in a healthy way. Some refer to this as “emotional castration” that is inflicted on little boys who grow to find themselves in a world where they cannot express emotions effectively, leading to outbursts of anger or aggression. That is toxic for them, and for their communities.

Dividing traits and characteristics between masculinity and femininity can serve to create a false dichotomy that limits how people move through the world. An interesting example that avoids toxicity is some indigenous treatments of gender whereby the masculine and feminine are seen to be two parts that live within each person in balance. The warrior inside represents a person’s masculine energies, while the creative and intuitive nature is drawn from their feminine energy. There is more to be said on this, but I’d have to dig up a book I’ve already packed for moving house. This treatment of masculine/feminine leaves space for the individual to exist on a spectrum of dichotomous ideas without limiting a person based on genitalia.

Masculinity really becomes toxic when it puts men in boxes that don’t actually fit who they are beyond their sexual identity. The same for femininity. I suppose the toxicity has a good deal to do with how masculinity and femininity limit people’s world and case them to interact with others in ways that are not pro-social or have negative consequences to the culture.

Yes, I think that the less we put people into little boxes the better. I don't want to become 'Jack in the Box'. We are becoming used to having to tick more and more boxes, on more and more forms, increasingly.

What is a man, and what ought he be in terms of authority and presence. The latest Assaults on 'toxic' masculinity have me wondering, how do we figure out what is too much or too little masculinity. — Edy

The word "authority" pops out at me here, along with the fact that "Assault" starts with a capital A as if it's an enshrined religious rite.

So this is like one of Hitler's speeches about how German men need to stop being a bunch of pussies and get their Viking on. Grab your horn hat and storm something.

Real men don't need to broadcast their beastliness, tho.

In other words, you can be as masculine as you want as long as your version of masculinity conforms to someone elses version if masculinity. :roll: — Harry Hindu

And not to just someone, but a specific vocal and dominant group that defines what is good or 'toxic' in the World we live today (among other things).

Any reference to anything with "Toxic x" has this special narrative and a distinct ideology behind it. I think it is far better to dissect "toxicity" in this case to something more accurately defined: are you specifically talking about sexual harassment, sexism, misogynism, male chauvinism, homophobia, male priviledge or simply bullying. Those terms open up far more better for people who don't know the toxic masculinity narrative. Besides, referring to toxic masculinity makes one think that the person is referring to that masculinity is toxic.

29 years here... :-)

Like always, the dose makes the toxicity. You have to allow for a little masculine assertiveness once in a while. The women who castrate their men don't have a good time in bed. Masculinity, like feminity, they spice up life.

Do you mind if I ask: what is masculine assertiveness? How does it differ from general assertiveness? Is there a feminine assertiveness? Is there prepubescent assertiveness?

Masculinity becomes toxic when men begin worrying about their masculinity. — Ciceronianus the White

:100: :up:

What about toxic femininity, toxic transsexuality, toxic oldness, toxic youngness, etc? It seems the bad word here is "toxic," so the moral is that you shouldn't do things that are poison or whatever toxic means. — Hanover

Sure thing. The phrase "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "masculinity, which is toxic", but "a form of masculinity that is toxic". There can be a form of pretty much anything that is toxic. The "toxic" in "toxic masculinity" is specifically to differentiate it from other, perfectly okay kinds of masculinity.

Of course. Balance in all things. Very Aristotelian!

what is masculine assertiveness? How does it differ from general assertiveness? — Uglydelicious

Not sure that it does differ from general assertiveness.

Balance in all things. Very Aristotelian! — Wayfarer

According to Wiki, the idea dates from the renaissance, and from a physician:

"The dose makes the poison" is an adage intended to indicate a basic principle of toxicology. It is credited to Paracelsus who expressed the classic toxicology maxim "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison."

Sound principle!

It goes beyond the essentialist idea that some things are bad and others are good by nature. I believe it applies to gender roles and differences. A touch of contrast between men and women, between feminity and masculinity, is not a bad thing per say.