As a man you should not complain too loudly about difficulty or pain, you should expect hardship and bear the burden, you should never use your physical strength to harm those weaker than you, you should use your strength to help those weaker than you, you should be the first to volunteer, et al.
/.../
My question is this: do you think that this version of masculinity has a place in the modern world? — BigThoughtDropper

Did it ever?
Was it ever practiced??

I've actually found that by saving someone else people save themselves. — Tom Storm

Do explain and illustrate with an example.

I think masculinity and femininity are not toxic. The same behaviour in animals is called survival. We hold ourselves to standards that are unrealistic. — TaySan

This makes sense.

Yes, that's what I was trying to suggest by "perhaps due to the traditional straitjackets of gender-socialization" followed by "built" and then "need" (the latter in quotes) as expectations not biological traits, etc. — 180 Proof

I think ignoring the role that biology plays is misleading, but I'm not sure what the causes are makes any difference with how we handle it.

New Yorker Cartoon caption (below sketch of 2 guys chatting)

Last summer I tried using prostitutes and found it surprisingly affordable. — Bitter Crank

That's pretty damn funny!

Do explain and illustrate with an example. — baker

I think of the health care industry, where people have devoted their entire lives to saving others, and in pursuit thereof, they have enhanced their own physical fitness, knowledge, and well-being. I could name many names, but that would not be appropriate on a public forum and without their consent. One of these people was headed down what most would consider a dead-end path of self-destruction. They were told to get their head out of their ass and do something for someone else for a change, instead of gazing at their own navel and thinking how F'd up life is.

I've seen it with horses, and other animals, and mothers, particularly.

It is true that one must take care of themselves in order to care for others. But taking care of others can take care of you for that very reason. They found their worth *after* and as part of their service; not before or in spite of it.

Ruyard Kipling, et al. due to my literary background, may be another place I get my notions of "noble" masculinity from. We must appreciate the impact of art. Thanks for sharing!

thanks for letting me know! I guess it is a little myopic to think that anyone over the age of 30 cannot be active on an online forum.

you know, I was musing earlier today about this. If the virtues of being a man can also be the virtues of being a woman, then what is the point in drawing a line between the two?

The thing is, at least in my experience, that some of my ideas about being a being a man are a reaction my experiences with women who have been my close friends, and also women who have been partners/ lovers.

To have a very strong idea of being a woman, and tying that with your identity, is not the least bit controversial or troubling for, dare I say it, the majority of women. I could give examples but I think everyone will get what I mean. Femininity is something women embrace as giving them a sense of self.

Therefore, in much the same way I have embraced the societal tropes of being a man (consciously without the toxic stuff). In that same way I find it also gives me a nice sense of self. I even like to think, to bring it back the central issue of the virtues of manhood, that my own brand of masculinity can be a force for good.

Nicely said. Nothing wrong with identifying with a masculine trope.

Problems arise when the trope is taken to be normative - when someone expects others to conform to their own identity.

Being a Man (capitalised) is fine if it is like preferring vanilla icecream over chocolate.

But not if it is like expecting others to prefer vanilla icercream over chocolate.

that's quite a well balanced view and I think is along the same lines as the point made by 180 proof. You can see my reply to her/him, but briefly: although masculinity can break down as a useful concept when we think of it a moral compass, might it not have a positive role to play in our sense of self, in the same way that women find femininity a positive attribute?

you raise quite a subtle and interesting point. My knee-jerk reaction would-be to say that to conform, in one way or another, is a necessary part of our adolescent development, and also our adult day to day lives. To "fit-in" is part of being human (a co-operative species). However, one could argue that to conform too often or too strongly is a negative thing for all sorts of reasons and I would be very inclined to agree with you. I will brood on it :)

I don't ignore biology, I just don't deflate the role of culture and socialization in Human cognition & behavior on that account as, for instance, sociobiologists or evolutionary psychologists have a tendancy to do.

:100:

Art is no luxury.

Art is no luxury. — Manuel

I agree it is no luxury. It is a necessity. But I do think it comes with leisure. When folks had a full belly in a warm cave on a cold winter day, they could only screw so much.

To me, this is clearly at least partly true. — T Clark

cause you Da man

My knee-jerk reaction would-be to say that to conform, in one way or another, is a necessary part of our adolescent development, — BigThoughtDropper

I might have agreed until I spent time with transitioning children. Hence I'm ambivalent towards this:

Boys need to develop the masculine virtues. Men need to develop the feminine ones. Otherwise, one will be lopsided. First become what you are, and then transcend it. — unenlightened

Forcing people to "fit in" can be immensely destructive. @T Clark appears to wish that there were normative forces at play in our biology, but that looks to me to be an instance of the naturalistic fallacy.

In the end one needs to be cautious of what one expects of others.

Certainly. Nothing matters if you're starving. Once that and other basic needs are met, we're going to need something meaningful to give some sense to this world of ours. We're just born creative, inquisitive creatures.

Personally, I think art is the only worthwhile contribution of human beings to existence, from any outside, objective perception (assuming there is one). All else we do is BS for ourselves. A better way to say this might be: If after we are long gone, an alien intelligence visits Earth and pokes around, they are going to think art was about it. They won't be impressed with anything else. Hopefully they will be able to hear our music.

If after we are long gone, an alien intelligence visits Earth and pokes around, they are going to think art was about it. They won't be impressed with anything else. Hopefully they will be able to hear our music. — James Riley

I'm sympathetic, the only caveat would be: this would be true if they have the same capacities for art that we have. Maybe they have an art we could not recognize as such and vice versa.

But as you imply, it is rather special. We have all this extra energy after we're done with basic needs. Then we go on putting colors on walls, or rhyming, then on to novels and films and paintings.

Not being precise exactly, speaking more loosely: it's as if whatever we create is the purpose for existence, whatever it is. And often it's some strange thing we call art.

Boys need to develop the masculine virtues. Men need to develop the feminine ones. Otherwise, one will be lopsided. First become what you are, and then transcend it. — unenlightened

There are masculine virtues?

There are masculine virtues? — Possibility

Yes. They are sealed in a vault somewhere in Texas.

There are masculine virtues?
— Possibility

Yes. They are sealed in a vault somewhere in Texas. — Joshs

Ah. so presumably there also feminine virtues, and a breeding program. If they are kept seperatly, that would involve artificial insemination. Looks like the makings of an excellent conspiracy theory.

I appreciate that, thank you.

It is a shrewd observation you make. It brings to mind the pop psychology theory that the ideal partner is a reflection of ourselves (*shudder*). Which points to an unwillingness or inability to emphasise. Writ large it underpins sexism.

There's a bit in Terry Pratchett's fantasy novel "Reaper Man" where a lady fortune teller is trying to get past the gates of the (entirely male) Unseen University but a wizard is barring the way. He says "my good woman" a lot in that affable seemingly harmless way which really really angers the fortune teller. I can see now with your description what Pratchett was getting at.

Then what do you think it has to do with? — TaySan

I’ll start be clarifying that I agree masculinity and femininity are not toxic, per se. It’s how we wield these terms to corral, control or justify behaviour (in the name of survival, dominance or proliferation) that can become toxic.

‘Adapt to survive’ as a blanket justification for behaviour is a bit of a cop-out here. It’s a misunderstanding of evolutionary aims. We haven’t evolved as organisms equipped to maximise survival, domination and proliferation, but to increase awareness, connection and collaboration. This capacity and tendency in our behaviour far surpasses any survival necessity.

And if you think that the life and teachings of the Buddha or Christ was about survival, then you weren’t paying attention. The Dalai Lama and the Pope model distorted versions of this, geared towards the (unnecessary) survival of an institution.

Hum, what would we want in a captain of the ship or a captain of industry? Bill Gates is a take-charge person and he has accomplished a lot. We might not like how he got to the top, but we have all benefited from what he accomplished.

The Dalai Lama is very different from Bill Gates, and for all the good of his leadership, I don't think his leadership would lead to a high standard of living with schools and hospitals and the industry for a — Athena

Societal expectations about gender doesn’t have anything to do with captains of industry, either. The Dalai Lama is a spiritual leader - he’s not running the country, so I don’t know what a comparatively ‘high standard of living’ has to do with what he’s working to achieve. Bill Gates, for all his philanthropy, is doing it out of his surplus resources, not his compassion. To follow the example of Bill Gates is to wait until you’re a billionaire before giving.

so glad someone brought Star Trek into this. The "group think" paradigm is an interesting way to distinguish our liberal norms to those of the '50s.

To clarify, you are saying the decline of gender roles is linked with the decline of individuality?

Although I love Star Trek, and the example you used, I am afraid I have to disagree with you. Perhaps this is just reflection of my personality and outlook but every classroom, staff meeting or social event I've ever been in feels like a wild West shoot-out of people's ideas. The fastest gun wins. Hell: take this very forum. At the very least I think it shows "group think" is not ubiquitous.

I put it to you that what has changed since the '50s is more people have been empowered, given a voice and have been allowed to enter the fray. I think it's always been a competition, only now we have more players.

There's a bit in Terry Pratchett's fantasy novel "Reaper Man" where a lady fortune teller is trying to get past the gates of the (entirely male) Unseen University but a wizard is barring the way. He says "my good woman" a lot in that affable seemingly harmless way which really really angers the fortune teller. I can see now with your description what Pratchett was getting at. — BigThoughtDropper

Love Discworld! From memory, ‘Equal Rites’ was an interesting commentary on sexism, too.

Do explain and illustrate with an example. — baker

Doing something meaningful for others often provides purpose and healing for the helper. People dealing with depression, trauma and substance issues, for instance, can find healing in volunteering and community work that they may not get from counselling or introspection. Three decades of work in the area of addictions and mental ill health has demonstrated this to me many times.

We have all this extra energy after we're done with basic needs. Then we go on putting colors on walls, or rhyming, then on to novels and films and paintings.

Not being precise exactly, speaking more loosely: it's as if whatever we create is the purpose for existence, whatever it is. And often it's some strange thing we call art. — Manuel

What? Not here to survive, multiply and dominate? Isn’t that the goal of evolution?

I agree with you. I think there is a creative impetus underlying evolution - to increase awareness, connection and collaboration. And I think that art has been consolidating our progress in this.

Good question. Noone in my life truly fits this description perfectly. If they have one virtue, they have one more flaw. I guess that is why we have ideals. To strive towards.

The Romans for example were very virtue orientated with their ethics. The ideal man for the pre-Augustan Romans would one day rise up to command an army and fight away the enemy, and the next day he would return to the plow. I doubt anyone took this literally.