I'll readily concede that attempting to sell one's will to power as philanthropy is much more complicated.

Your obedience is apparent. But appeals to law and authority mean nothing when that authority is questionable, abused and leads to injustice.

Tough titty, fella. Move as far off the grid as you can then (i.e. for consistancy sake, treat society / civilization itself as the egregious "externality" that you believe it is). And good luck with that! For the rest of us, however, the synergistic benefits of eusociality still far-outweigh the notional costs.

No thanks. We've seen your "eusociality" descend into rank tribalism and murder too many for it to be something to be proud of. I'll seek the company of free men.

...and yet here you are.

Note: discussing topics on the internet is meddling in someone's life to Banno.

What I always find funny about individualists and their freedoms is how they basically whine about rights that haven't really existed for the majority of western people since the 1900s. By every conceivable standard, there's more choice and more freedom today than in the past with some fluctuations here and there. There's also more choice and freedom in western social democracies than the Anglo Saxon affair often touted as an example of individualism.

Personal rights are protected by strong and effective governments. In other words, small governments and maximized freedom are mutually exclusive. — Benkei

Something as basic as food, I’m sure that prior to the FDA food producers didn’t want anyone meddling in their business. They did pretty much whatever the market would bear, until the buyers could no longer bear it. Some of the worst additives were things like radium and highly addictive drugs like cocaine.

But appeals to law and authority mean nothing when that authority is questionable, abused and leads to injustice. — NOS4A2

It means that we work from within the system to make necessary corrections to promote justice. Justice, as I understand it, goes beyond your desire to be left alone or the absolute protection of every right you might claim.

We've seen your "eusociality" descend into rank tribalism and murder too many for it to be something to be proud of. I'll seek the company of free men. — NOS4A2

Yeah, NOS, you must be one of those disingenuous damn Incel-fools running around with MAGA hats & rebel flags on your pick-up trucks and blaming "Antifi & BLM" for looting during mass protests against unaccountable killer cops and "Islamic terrorists" for waging asymmetric warfare against globalist, client-state, manifestations of the American Empire all the while ignoring (or materially supporting and/or participating with) Alt-Right/Proud Boys/QAnon and ethno-tribal White Supremacist "free men" have been, respectively, looting the US Capitol and terrorizing unarmed, fellow American citizens with near-daily mass-shootings. That you're freely using this site's bandwidth with your (I'll be charitable) deplorably trollish commentary, NOS, testifies to the eusociality of accessible commons and, therefore, of your infantile "individualist" demand to be "left alone" which you aren't wo/man enough to reciprocate by leaving this site, or any public commons, alone. :shade:

It means that we work from within the system to make necessary corrections to promote justice. Justice, as I understand it, goes beyond your desire to be left alone or the absolute protection of every right you might claim.

We probably have different conceptions of the state. I see any state system as an imposition, formed by conquest and confiscation, designed to enrich the conquerors by exploiting the vanquished. To me it is fundamentally criminal and anti-social institution no matter how far it has strayed from its original intentions.

Yeah, NOS, you must be one of those disingenuous damn Incel-fools running around with MAGA hats & rebel flags on your pick-up trucks and blaming "Antifi & BLM" for looting during mass protests against unaccountable killer cops and "Islamic terrorists" for waging asymmetric warfare against globalist, client-state, manifestations of the American Empire all the while ignoring (or materially supporting and/or participating with) Alt-Right/Proud Boys/QAnon and ethno-tribal White Supremacist "free men" have been, respectively, looting the US Capitol and terrorizing unarmed, fellow American citizens with near-daily mass-shootings. That you're freely using this site's bandwidth with your (I'll be charitable) deplorably trollish commentary, NOS, testifies to the eusociality of accessible commons and, therefore, of your infantile "individualist" demand to be "left alone" which you aren't wo/man enough to reciprocate by leaving this site, or any public commons, alone.

Oh sure, I must be—or these are the fantasies you like to tell yourself. I don't need to pop your bubble as you've already accepted your status as drone.

You've already told me/us who and what you are from our first exchanges over a year an a half ago, NOS, so I/we don't have to fantasize about you.

You don’t have to, yet you do, 180proof. If you ever care to know don’t hesitate to ask. I don’t hide my views.

I don’t want isolation. By “leave me alone” I mean I want them to quit meddling in my life. That’s what you fail to recognize. — NOS4A2

I learned that no policy, regulation, statute or Constitution ever came about in a vacuum, or through some insidious governmental desire to meddle with someone for no reason. Each and every case came about in response to:

1. Someone who just wanted to be left alone externalizing the costs of their existence onto the backs of someone who did not agree, in an arms-length transaction, to voluntarily assume those costs; or

2. The insidious desire of those who sought to suppress competition by lobbying government for a standard they could afford to comply with, but which they knew competition, or would-be competition, could not afford.

Unfortunately, society applies those standards across the board (unless you can afford to purchase an exemption) to everyone, regardless of whether they personally have externalized a cost. But here's the deal:

I also learned the greatest threat posed to those who just want to be left alone is not who they think it is (government or meddlesome liberal busy bodies) but, rather, other people who just want to be left alone, who got their first, have more power, and want to keep the little "leave me alone" guy down.

Unlike you, I did seek isolation. I sought it for two different reasons:

1. I wanted to get to. To the Earth.

2. I wanted to get away from. From meddlers who wouldn't leave me alone.

I'd rather supplement the word "wanted" with "freedom." I wanted freedom to, and I wanted freedom from.

I conjured up the notion in my own mind, that all the freedom in the world ain't worth shit if you don't have a place to be free in. I then read a man, much more eloquent than I, who said the same thing thus: "Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?" Aldo Leopold.

I knew an eastern man, long in city pent, with, ostensibly, the same Constitutional and legal freedoms as I had, out west, was not as free to, or as free from, as was I. And I knew that the greatest danger posed to my place to be free was not the man in the city. Rather, the greatest threat is my peer out west, just wanting to be left alone, so he can clear cut, strip mine, dam, over-graze, plow, subdivide, pave and domesticate all that he claimed he loved, and all that he found pride in, all while looking down his nose at the city slicker, and all while dissing the eastern locations that were once just as great and free as the west. This man, who just wants to be left alone, is hell-bent on turning his place into what he hates about that other place. He should just pack his damn bags and move to the city if that's what he working toward. Instead, he complains about the urban immigrants moving to the west, yearning to be free of the city, but bringing their liberal ways with them.

But it all boils down to people who just want to be left alone. There's too god damn many of them. And they encourage breeding and the production of even more, throwing semen and seed, hither and yon, because it's his God-given right to flood the world with his spawn.

In short, you can't do it alone, Bro. You're gonna need help to be left alone. Make sure you don't ride for the wrong outfit. But you will have to ride for one. There is no more open range.

Guys it's pretty obvious that this is NOS4A2

We probably have different conceptions of the state. — NOS4A2

Yes, mine is based on actual regimes, your's on a resentment fueled fantasy. If that is far as it goes then that is your problem. If you act on it it becomes our problem. And then you may lose whatever precious little freedom you now have. You no doubt will call this injustice but I call it justice.

We met the new MAGA, same as the old MAGA, didn't we? — 180 Proof

Gottabe lovin me some of that CCR!

:smirk:

Didn't know "Al Bundy" was a fuckin Fed. :point:

Yes, mine ["conception of the state"] is based on actual regimes, your's on a resentment fueled fantasy. If that is far as it goes then that is your problem. If you act on it it becomes our problem. And then you may lose whatever precious little freedom you now have. You no doubt will call this injustice but I call it justice. — Fooloso4

:100: :clap:

And then you may lose whatever precious little freedom you now have. — Fooloso4

ala Claude Dallas.

We probably have different conceptions of the state. I see any state system as an imposition, formed by conquest and confiscation, designed to enrich the conquerors by exploiting the vanquished. To me it is fundamentally criminal and anti-social institution no matter how far it has strayed from its original intentions. — NOS4A2

I've read research that the original intentions were pretty much as you describe, and only relatively recently has civilazation been worth the price of forced admission for the average Joe. That's history though, today we could emigrate to any country that would have us and perhaps find ourselves in a better situation than where we came from. You're an expatriate yourself, aren't you?

I have to infer, as you only imply a political principal(?) in the negative, by how people object, but I sense a fundamental struggle for the ability to create a self, a fight for the right to exist. People pounce on the substance of Marx's "means of production" without hearing the important revelation: we produce ourselves--through society, in relation to it--or are produced (by default, the contract is signed for us). For the self, it's maybe not so much changing or controlling the means, as seeing ourselves in their possibilities. Could we say the ordinary is the beginning of the journey towards the betterment of the self, based not on self interest, but the interests you have (that your self has)--what you notice, what you are drawn to do, what you align with (becoming by accepting (you), rather than fighting/acting/knowing, as Heidegger would say). Now, that some may not listen to their voice, never find themselves in the world, seems a greater danger than externalizing the inability to have a self onto the vague oppression/dissappontments of society. In fact that seems like a perfect excuse to get out of the responsibility for and to our self. Is there a problem? I'd say more a tragic misconception, a displacement or blindness by the desire for perfection or to be something special, but this is all conjecture as we have no examples, methodology, motivation, critique, text, etc.

I've read research that the original intentions were pretty much as you describe, and only relatively recently has civilazation been worth the price of forced admission for the average Joe. — praxis

And what about those for whom it has not been worth it? Are you happy to accept them as collateral damage? Do you believe they should too?

No man is an island, the individualist's actions inevitably affect others, Beyond some petty grab for control it is necessary to rein in the individual for the good of the collective. Devoid of any sense of obligation to the group a person quickly becomes detached, drifting without any firm anchor of reciprocality to caution them.
Not to say that the collective is "superior" since it merely consists of many individuals and might itself become an Individual, falling prey to the same ills I described above. But the numerous opinions and personalities in a group often serve to slow it down and temper progress with caution, or at least fear.

I've read research that the original intentions were pretty much as you describe, and only relatively recently has civilazation been worth the price of forced admission for the average Joe.
— praxis

And what about those for whom it has not been worth it? Are you happy to accept them as collateral damage? Do you believe they should too? — Tzeentch

If these are rhetorical questions l’m not getting the point. It looks like life in hunter-gatherer society or simple farming was better until only recently, but now it is generally better. Anyone can go off-grid and live off the land if they wish to now.

Yes, mine is based on actual regimes, your's on a resentment fueled fantasy. If that is far as it goes then that is your problem. If you act on it it becomes our problem. And then you may lose whatever precious little freedom you now have. You no doubt will call this injustice but I call it justice.

We watched just recently as the Islamic State (an actual regime) formed before our eyes. This was not due to any absurd notion of a social contract or anything else, but by expropriation, terror, murder and the enslavement of the people who lived there. Anyone who resisted were met with your kind of justice, stoned to death or murdered on the spot. So what a complacent and statist fantasy you have there.

I've read research that the original intentions were pretty much as you describe, and only relatively recently has civilazation been worth the price of forced admission for the average Joe. That's history though, today we could emigrate to any country that would have us and perhaps find ourselves in a better situation than where we came from. You're an expatriate yourself, aren't you?

It’s been over a year since the government seized the economy. Just a week or so ago we’ve been told we cannot leave our health authority, and if we leave we should expect roadblocks and fines. My right to work, to travel, gone with the stroke of a pen. So I’m a little salty.



That was a good story. Thanks for writing and sharing. But I’ve stated numerous times no one is suggesting doing it alone. It’s more refusing to be a drain on others than escaping others.

You went from:

We probably have different conceptions of the state. I see any state system as ... — NOS4A2

to the Islamic State. Is it necessary to explain the logical fallacy to you?

If you ever care to know don’t hesitate to ask. I don’t hide my views. — NOS4A2

Trouble is, if by views you meant anything mature and thought out, then you don't have any. From your ability to construct sentences I reckon you're equipped by your maker to have views, but for some reason either cannot, or do a very good job of pretending you cannot. Trouble is, the man who wraps himself in the flag of being an asshole, thereby is an asshole. Funny how it works that way.

It just leaves the question why. There's the psychological mechanism of taking vices to be virtues. Or in brief, perhaps you have persuaded yourself, God alone know how or why, to be an asshole and to be proud to be one. But maybe someday you may learn to trust the rest of the world: being an asshole is not a good thing, nor something to be proud of.

to the Islamic State. Is it necessary to explain the logical fallacy to you?

I recall you dismissing the theory and resorting to ridicule. So please, explain the logical fallacy.

Someone who tries to bully others on the internet, miles away from any accountability, shouldn't try to lecture others on virtue. You're the asshole, Tim, and about as useful as one on an elbow.

So please, explain the logical fallacy. — NOS4A2

Do you really not understand or are you just being obstinate?

You said "the state" and "any state" These are all inclusive claims about all states, each and every state. To conclude something about any state from one state is a logical fallacy. We cannot conclude that all dogs have three legs because Tripod does.

In short, your answer seems to be "Yes, they are simply collateral damage".

The system that facilites and promotes the birthing of individuals, then promptly attempts to claim them for its own purposes, like a failed parent, has no other answer than "If you don't like it here, you can leave".

Of course, this isn't even a realistic option for the vast majority of individuals. To emancipate oneself from the mental clutches of the state is a lengthy process, by the end of which one finds themselves rooted in the system. To emancipate oneself from the physical clutches of the state, a near-impossibility.

Luckily, the individual has other options. Namely, to dispose any of the state's mental and intellectual impositions in the trash bin where they belong, leaving the state with only its most primitive tool, the cement of "society"; coercion, which the average individual is insignificant enough to evade.

Do you really not understand or are you just being obstinate?

You said "the state" and "any state" These are all inclusive claims about all states, each and every state. To conclude something about any state from one state is a logical fallacy. We cannot conclude that all dogs have three legs because Tripod does.

I do understand, but I didn’t make the conclusion from one example. I provided one example after you concluded it was a resentment-filled fantasy absent any example or reason altogether.

No man is an island, the individualist's actions inevitably affect others, Beyond some petty grab for control it is necessary to rein in the individual for the good of the collective. — New2K2

What if he (the individual) regards "the collective" that attempts to rein him in as an immoral enterprise?

Devoid of any sense of obligation to the group a person quickly becomes detached, drifting without any firm anchor of reciprocality to caution them. — New2K2

Do you believe this to be true for all individuals? If yes, on what basis? And if no, why should those for whom this is not true contend with being imposed upon?

Make sure you don't ride for the wrong outfit. But you will have to ride for one. There is no more open range. — James Riley

ala Claude Dallas. — James Riley

In these a cautionary tale. With the corollary that we're embedded in our history. Lincoln got it, "Fellow citizens, we cannot escape history."

And the example of that history is that people (and other animals), whenever or wherever found, have found benefit in community and have always tried to live in communities. Thus an historical imperative manifested in history. The separatist impulse, then, appears in two broad forms: first, as the individual who wishes to separate from the community he finds himself in - Ishmael; and second, the individual wishing to separate from all community - the Unabomber. The latter imo a symptom of some likely illness, the former a candidate. And the seduction of self-justification by the separated man and his justification itself, being essentially non-communal, dangerous. "Ride for the right outfit"! No mere bumper-sticker wisdom, but wisdom that fits on a bumper-sticker.

The separatist impulse, — tim wood

:100:

I sometimes wonder what saved me. The seduction is real, and it can be very persuasive. I think my proclivity toward both the illness and candidacy was balanced by a strong sense of a non-existent justice. I see my own footprint on the Earth, and realize I cannot ameliorate it on my own, without compounding the problem by making space for others with bigger feet. Thus, we must work together to check ourselves. So I stay and play.
. . . .

Oh, but to be the first man through the Bering Strait! Days of harshness, big game hunting, clean water and air, and countless miles of Eden with no need to anticipate conflict with other humans. Now, about those two or three each of the most beautiful females of every ethnicity, 40 and under, and all trained up in things I could use, like medicine, engineering, and etc. . . .