So, Joshua lead a horde of rabid Hebrew tribes to steal Canaanite land (i.e. ethnic cleansing) through mass rapine slaughter at the behest of voices in his fucking head (and voices in dead Moses' fucking head) more than three millennia ago AND THAT "justifies" modern Israelis claim now to "the Jewish Promised Land" and therefore their ("divine birth")right to gradually reenact of that ancient atrocity ur-myth by nearly eight decades of dispossessing a centuries-long settled Arab population in order to ethnically cleanse the lands between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea for "Judenstaat, Judenstaat" über alles? Well, Bitcon et al, to quote my beloved Hillel the Elder: G-F-Y. :shade: — 180 Proof

Before I even start with this we really need to address this term "ethnic cleansing." It can be used for both genocide and banishment/expulsion, and while these are obviously both bad things the two are not the same at all and should not be used interchangeably. The Jews have been banished all across Europe throughout their history but I would feel weird saying that Europe "ethnically cleansed" the Jews e.g. in the Middle Ages, due to this term's association with genocide. Just something to be aware of.

Onto the topic - What kind of justification would suit you in terms of proving that the holy land belongs to the Jews? Do I need more ancient sources? Is that really going to convince you? Short of God personally coming down here, what on Earth could I use to justify this to you? Do you believe the Muslim holy books more?

There have been Jewish communities living in that area for thousands of years. Hundreds of thousands of Arabs fled in 1948 because they expected the area to be a mass graveyard after the fledgling state fell & Arab armies rushed in. I'm not saying it's all cookies and cream and forced expulsions occurred just as many Jews were kicked out of many Arab countries following these wars. Are you going to demand that the Arabs and the Europeans compensate the Jews? Let's get started on that.

And still you've got nothing but acquiescent silence for Isreali oppression & atrocities. — 180 Proof

I'm not talking to you 180, just using your quote. I don't think anybody who has stepped into this thread has condoned Israel's recent actions. Nobody. So why this accusation?

Can't find someone to attack so you attack the people in your own side. What?

Joshs has put a couple of theories on the table. My theory: it's primal. It's mundane frustration and disappointment. These things find whatever outlet you offer them.

It's exactly the same thing that fuels racism and religious in intolerance. I could find creative ways to deal with my emotions but instead I'll just vomit them up on you. I'll join a crowd of Jews who are beating the crap out of a Palestinian.

Same thing.

Imagine thinking it's 'woke' to oppose genocide. This is your brain on propaganda.

Before I even start with this we really need to address this term "ethnic cleansing." It can be used for both genocide and banishment/expulsion, and while these are obviously both bad things the two are not the same at all and should not be used interchangeably. — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe if Isreal wasn't involved in exactly both, it would be slightly harder to use the term. But of course insofar as it is engaged in both settler colonialism and genocide - in one in service of the other - 'ethnic cleansing' is quite the rather apt term.

This is not true! There's a huge difference in how Israeli citizens with the Jewish nationality are treated and those without the Jewish nationality. I'm disappointed you repeat this, as I pointed this out a year ago in the Israel and Zionism thread. — Benkei

Ok and what's the upshot of this? Do we wag our finger at Israel and tell them to be better? Or does it mean we should dismantle the Israeli state? Have you seen how Jewish minorities are treated in the Arab world? Have you strongly condemned the Arab treatment of Jewish minorities in this thread? There's plenty of work to be done around racial justice everywhere in the world including the US and Canada. How have you been treating your muslim immigrants over there in Europe?

Whataboutist rubbish. And the upshot is obviously for Isreal not to treat is Arab citizens like 5th class citizens. But kinda hard to do when you're a racist ethnostate built on principles of racial political superiority.

I can’t understand how you find “Look at all these other countries committing atrocities” an argument for committing atrocities. I thought you’d get the point after I made fun of it. Apparently not.

Maybe if Isreal wasn't involved in exactly both, it would be slightly harder to use the term. — StreetlightX

Terrible thing, isn't it. But what about the ongoing genocide of black and brown people in the United States? Shouldn't we be condemning that one first? Have you been to Baltimore, Maryland lately? Reminds me of Auschwitz. Come on over the states and we can protest together.

I can’t understand how you find “Look at all these other countries committing atrocities” an argument for committing atrocities. I thought you’d get the point after I made fun of it. Apparently not. — khaled

Why are we talking about Israel? Lets talk about the Arab countries today, no more Israel talk. Lets make a list of everything they've ever done wrong... for what purpose? Who knows, we just want to make them feel bad! :brow:

Come on over the states and we can protest together. — BitconnectCarlos

It's quite alright, we have enough problems with our treatment of aboriginals to deal with right here. And of course, more whataboutism from you. Expected from a racist, but there you go.

Why are we talking about Israel? — BitconnectCarlos

Because they’re currently shooting a place with missiles. Also because that’s what the thread is about.

Wouldn’t think that one needs an explanation.... Live and learn I suppose.

Lets talk about the Arab countries today, no more Israel talk. — BitconnectCarlos

Start a thread about them if you want. If talking about the atrocities committed by the country you don’t like makes you feel better about the atrocities of the country you like... go ahead.

Who knows, we just want to make them feel bad! :brow: — BitconnectCarlos

Well, no, we want to discuss the issue and show genocide supporters like you why it’s wrong.

Well, no, we want to discuss the issue and show genocide supporters like you why it’s wrong. — khaled

I was going to provide a response but once I heard this it's just a no-go for me. We're just throwing insults around now, nothing productive.

We SHOULD imagine that this discussion was about slavery, or the holocaust , or serial killers, or Stalin or Pol Pot. That’s the whole point. — Joshs

...Right, and imagine someone replying that in such conversations "focusing on differences in perspective and worldview" instead of direct condemnation of slave-owners.

On the other hand, there are a group of commenters on this thread( perhaps you included , perhaps not) who seem to evince textbook characteristics of what I call ‘woke cultishness’ . — Joshs

Congratulations for being the umpteenth dumbass to use "woke cultishness", a meaningless phrase used typically by conservatives as a substitute for actual thinking. A thought terminating cliché and clarion call for dipshits. Christ, banal white people have appropriated "woke" for own purposes for several years now, it's so boring at this point. It's ironic that you are accusing us of lacking "moral nuance", and "complexity" before quoting Batya Ungar-Sargon, who once compared Ilhan Omar to David Duke, harasses Jews of Color, and publishes insane articles about befriending Neo-Nazis.

But what about the ongoing genocide of black and brown people in the United States? Shouldn't we be condemning that one first? Have you been to Baltimore, Maryland lately? Reminds me of Auschwitz. — BitconnectCarlos

moron alert! moron alert!

Insults? No just statements of fact. You think what’s happening there is justified.

And I think the main problem is: you couldn’t provide a response. Not that you felt insulted. You’ve been called all sorts of things on this thread “genocide supporter” is hardly the worst. So I doubt that it made you feel insulted enough not to respond.

See here for instance:

And of course, more whataboutism from you. Expected from a racist — StreetlightX

That’s the guy you’ve been talking to for multiple pages now.

It’s just that you recognize that you can’t justify atrocities by mentioning other atrocities. You have no counter argument and you can’t support your position without using that fallacious tactic. But I’m willing to bet you will continue to do so regardless. “The arabs discriminated against us so that justifies systematic slaughter”

lol maw it was obvious satire. learn to take things less literally.

Insults? No just statements of fact. You think what’s happening there is justified.

And I think the main problem is: you couldn’t provide a response. Not that you felt insulted. You’ve been called all sorts of things on this thread “genocide supporter” is hardly the worst. So I doubt that it made you feel insulted enough not to respond. — khaled

Not a statement of fact. Complete lie. There has never been any Israeli plot to genocide either the Palestinians or the Arabs.

I could throw the same thing back at you - why are the Palestinians trying to wipe every Israeli Jew off the face of the Earth?

We could do this all day. Is this a productive line of conversation?

lol maw it was obvious satire. learn to take things less literally. — BitconnectCarlos

Right of course, "obvious" ex nihilo satire.

It was a reference to an earlier conversation that I had with Streetlight.

Onto the topic - — BitconnectCarlos

Finally. Really appreciated ...

What kind of justification would suit you in terms of proving that the holy land belongs to the Jews?

... Oh look, too good to be fuckin' true! Off topic again so soon – in the same sentence. Anyway, okay.

Nothing ethical justifies ethnic cleansing.

Do I need more ancient sources?

I don't.

Is that really going to convince you?

No more than myths, fairytales or comic books can convince me to dispossess generations of the majority inhabitants from the land continuously inhabited for at least several centuries by their ancestors before foreign refugees and colonizers invaded the land and dispossessed and then (now) oppress them.

Short of God personally coming down here, what on Earth could I use to justify this to you?

Even if g/G exists, a deity's word alone would not justify dispossessing, oppressing & ethnic cleansing, only condone it and, thereby, expose its own evil.

Do you believe the Muslim holy books more?

Same ignorance and falsehood, different tribal language. I've found history books far far more credible and corroborable.

Are you going to demand that the Arabs [Turks] and the Europeans compensate the Jews?

Of course not. Europeans already have "ccmpensated the Jews" by firstly making an egregious mess of colonial partition after the collapse of the Ottomans and secondly then giving degrees of support for the establishment and on-going existence of the European Jewish State of Israel. Any more "compensation", if such is needed (and it's fuckin' not), should come from the dregs of the Ottoman & Roman Empires which in their respected ways had dispossessed Jews almost completely from the Levant and scattered Jewish communities to "the four corners of the known world" in a diaspora that has lasted millennia.

This person is both genuine and sincere and was referring to the social ecology of the Irsraeli populace. He had thought that going to Jerusalem would be kind of a revelatory pilgrimage, but was disheartened by that the Israelis seemed to be subject to a kind of collective malaise. That's what I assume, anyways. — thewonder

I'm going to go with his probably accurate impression of collective malaise.

There are billions of citizens in various countries subject to a collective malaise. I should add all sorts of qualifications to such a blanket statement, but that would become too convoluted.

I see plenty of examples of some sort of malaise, unrest, dissatisfaction, anxiety, anger, and so on fairly often in the US. My guess is that the largest causes of this malaise are the still-uncertain (but pending none the less) outcomes of pandemics, global warming, destabllizing political behavior, uncertain economic futures, challenges to traditional roles, and so on. These (and more) factors affect both affluent and poor populations, just with different details.

Collective malaise makes sense under the circumstances. The world has been in dire straits before, and I would guess collective malaise was much more common at those times (pandemics, world wars, economic depressions, revolutions, civil wars, etc.)--especially in the absence of outstanding good news. World war was disturbing, but less so for population which were on the side that was winning. A robust economy and the war's end probably helped people deal with the 1918 influenza epidemic.

Does this theory make sense to you from your POV?

The 'self-defense' of Isreali fascism.

And still you've got nothing but acquiescent silence for Isreali oppression & atrocities. Where's your fucking moral clarity, Joshs? — 180 Proof

Are you serious with this silly over the top rhetoric? Who talks like this? You sound like a walking cliche. You have no idea what my actual involvement or commitment has been to social causes or suffering individuals, because you never bothered to ask me. I don’t think you want to know , because that would threaten your ‘moral clarity’. With all your history of assured , theoretically grounded activism , you’re triggered to insecure belligerence over a few measly provocative paragraphs from a stranger on a philosophy forum? Have you learned nothing from these great thinkers you mention?

Nothing ethical justifies ethnic cleansing. — 180 Proof

Jews are the indigenous inhabitants of Israel and they were the ones ethnically cleansed when they were originally expelled from their homeland by occupying powers. The Jewish immigrants coming from Europe were simply righting that original wrong and many were fleeing from Europe prior to the second world war. After the war many Jews in displaced person camps arrived in Israel seeking a better life after witnessing the horrors of the war. And some have the nerve to call these people "imperialists" or "colonizers."

Are you going to demand that the Arabs [Turks] and the Europeans compensate the Jews?
Of course not. Europeans already have "ccmpensated the Jews" by firstly making an egregious mess of colonial partition after the collapse of the Ottomans and secondly then giving degrees of support for the establishment and on-going existence of the European Jewish State of Israel. Any more "compensation", if such is needed (and it's fuckin' not), should come from the dregs of the Ottoman & Roman Empires which in their respected ways had dispossessed Jews almost completely from the Levant and scatters Jewish communities in a diaspora that has lasted millennia across much of the known world. — 180 Proof

Arabs could absolutely be asked to compensate Jews for any number of atrocities & ethnic cleansing campaigns against the Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries following the 1948 war. Why haven't you commented on this ethnic cleansing? There were also pogroms against Jewish villages during this time by Arabs. I could of course go on to list these but all I'm really after is you acknowledging that there is a long history of Arab atrocities towards Jews, including ethnic cleansing. You could make a pretty strong case that the history of the Middle East is just one ethnic cleansing after another.

So let's say, e.g. everyone is evil and the history is all f*cked up. So what do we do now? If we just nuked the whole joint that would put an end to the ethnic cleansing (and if Maw is reading this I want to point out that this comment is tongue in cheek.)

Yeah, gee, as Israel rains down fire upon Gaza in which a quarter of the dead are children, I wonder why the focus is on the Israeli murderers? What a complete fucking mystery.

And having been victims of ethic cleansing does not give one some kind of special licence to engage it after the fact. If anything, those who are all too quick to cry victim ought to be more, not less, vigilant against ever enacting such atrocities ever again. Yet here we here, with Isreali fascism murdering people left, right, and centre, being excused by genocide apologists like you. Pathetic.

Did you know that around 1/4 of Palestinian missiles fired into Israel are misfires and they end up going back into Gaza? They've killed some number, at least 8, of their own children this way.

Yeah, out of 850 rockets fired into Israel 200 of them stayed in Gaza.

Oh that makes Israeli murder OK then you apologist fuck.

You've demonstrated time and time again that you genuinely cannot tell the difference between actual murder and collateral damage so I just can't take your views on warfare or conflict particularly seriously.

The only people who think the massive death toll of Israeli aggression is - time and time again - 'accidental', are racist little shits who continually deny genocide. Half a century of continual 'collateral damage' is not 'collateral damage' - it is deliberate policy.

"Collateral" from artillery shelling densely packed buildings, "collateral" from a ground invasion armed to the teeth. Israel continually carries out terrorist attacks and the distinction between 'collateral' and 'deliberate' simply does not exist for it. It is is distinction without a difference for a state that doesn't give a shit who it kills.