They can take the Pfizer or Moderna. — frank

No, they can't. It's not possible to choose which vaccine one is going to be vaccinated with. At least in some parts of the world.

The choice then, if choice is so important to us, is between a certain health catastrophe if one refuses the COVID vaccine and a probable political catastrophe if one accepts the COVID vaccine. — TheMadFool

No, but a probable personal catastrophe if one accepts the COVID vaccine.

But I still think it’s well-established that the risks from COVID are far higher than the risks from any of the vaccines. — Wayfarer

So what?

Statistical probabilities calculated for a particular observed group do not translate into the same probabilities for a particular person. They would do so only if the probabilities would depend solely on chance.

Instead, the actual probability for an event to occur to a particular person has to be calculated for that particular person, based on empirical data for that person. If that data is not available, the probability can only be calculated theoretically. Meaning, there's actually a 50% chance you'll die from a vaccine.

All this talk about "low risks associated with vaccines" is just a way to falsely inspire hope and optimism. And compliance.

As in all things, I endorse the individual's right to choose. Medical science - all science - is inherently imperfect, as the history of science abundantly proves. The number of times that expert opinion has reversed even in the course of the pandemic also testifies to this. So if the majority of people choose to vaccinate out of self-interest that is great. I am going to avoid the vaccine just as diligently as I am trying to avoid the virus. I work in the medical field andcould have been fully vaccinated in January had I wished.

I have a question: Why does the discourse about this have to be so superficial??

What are the arguments for and against the responsibility that individuals might be thought to bear to accept a Covid 19 vaccine? What are the arguments for and against the right that individuals might be thought to enjoy to refuse a Covid 19 vaccine?
14h — Janus

My body, my choice. Their body, their choice.
Much like death, everyone handles it in their own way.
For me there is no right or wrong: just what people choose to do. Having said that: as long as everyone has had the chance to get the COVID 19 Vaccination and made their choice for themselves, then I will no longer allow my life to be guided by trying to protect the lives of others.
I have been Vaccinated and those around me who wish to have, the others have actively made the choice to not.
If someone comes down with COVID 19 now, I will feel empathy for them but I am a long way away from offering sympathy, UNLESS they were Vaccinated.
My husband was on a ventilator last May for 24 days and refuses to get Vaccinated. He was the one who said if you think masks are a bitch you should try a ventilator.
I can't believe it but it is his choice and his alone.

If he says "do it", all the computers in the world can go from functioning machines to being useless pieces of metal junk. — god must be atheist

But he won't. He needs us more than we need him. They all do. But if he did, it would ultimately be a good thing. Now, where did I put my looting clothes?

Sure, but being skeptical or cautious about the safety of the Covid vaccines (which have not undergone the usual mandatory 10-15 years of testing that vaccines undergo) does not equate to being an anti-vaxxer per se. — Janus

That is true. I just see the usual time line as taking too long when you can't even get the stupid people to wear masks and social distance. If they did the simple things, then yeah, we could give the vaccine protocols more time. But we chose to take a risk. We take much greater risks every time we walk out the door.

We take much greater risks every time we walk out the door. — James Riley

What is this party line supposed to do??

What is this party line supposed to do?? — baker

It's supposed to get people to rethink their alleged thinking. Same with the lotteries, game tickets, etc. In other words, "risk" is not really the reason most of these people don't get the vaccine. They are either scared or petulant.

It's supposed to get people to rethink their alleged thinking. Same with the lotteries, game tickets, etc. In other words, "risk" is not really the reason most of these people don't get the vaccine. They are either scared or petulant. — James Riley

What an extremely uncharitable position to take!


I think many people who refuse to get vaccinated or who are skeptical about taking (experimental) vaccines are so because the medical and the political establishment are abusing their trust.

We are in the position where we're expected to trust our lives to people who don't have time for us, who don't listen to us, who treat us like cattle, who are misrepresenting statistical findings, who are cynical, and some of whom have a personal history of betraying people's trust.

Are you not scared to put your life in the hands of such people?

I think many people who refuse to get vaccinated or who are skeptical about taking (experimental) vaccines are so because the medical and the political establishment are abusing their trust.

We are in the position where we're expected to trust our lives to people who don't have time for us, who don't listen to us, who treat us like cattle, who are misrepresenting statistical findings, who are cynical, and some of whom have a personal history of betraying people's trust.

Are you not scared to put your life in the hands of such people? — baker

You are too charitable. If your analysis was applied by these same stupid people every time their leaders ginned up a war, then you'd have a point. But they fall right in line. So yeah, fuck them. Every time you get in your car and drive past someone, you have placed yourself in a position where you trust your life to people who don't have time for you, who couldn't care less about you, who's only care is that they don't get hurt so they stay in their lane and expect you to stay in yours.

They aren't smart enough to know if statistical findings have been misrepresented. Instead, they listen to those who are, but conveniently forget: There are statistics, and then there are damn lies. Fuck statistics, unless and until you are a statistician. The anti-vaxers are the ones that are cynical, not the folks pushing the vaccine. I don't know where you got that. The one's pushing the vaccine are optimistic as hell.

But to answer your question, no. I'm not scared. But then, I'm not a pussy, and I'm making a calculated risk like I do every time I go out the door.

I'm old fashioned; I think everyone has a perfect right to be unprotected and infectious, provided they give other folks a wide berth by ringing a bell and shouting "unclean, unclean!", whenever anyone comes near. We civilised folks of course will reserve the right to disinfect their homes by burning them to the ground, and to shoot them like rabid dogs if they approach the village.

Here’s the way I see it, pulling a page from the conservative Republican playbook: Trump once said he was a war time President in a war against an invisible enemy. Okay. The front-line troops are the nurses, doctors, health workers and then, behind them, are the essential workers. If you don’t wear a mask, social distance and get a vaccine, then you don’t support the troops, you are un-American and you should get the hell out. Fuck you, you commie traitor!

So, one might ask, if the military industrial complex and their conservative Republican cucks are wrong about all that in a shooting war, then why would the left be right about it in this war against Covid? The simple answer to that question goes right back to who was being called cynical and manipulative. Since when has the medical profession conducted itself like the military industrial complex? The Spanish Flu?

I could flesh out the analogy with more comparisons to how the war mongers conduct themselves as they wrap themselves in our flag to get boys killed, but I won’t belabor it. Those assholes want everyone to fall in line for them. Well, it’s time for them to step up. But yeah, crickets. Cowards. Get the god damn shot so we can move on. And if we all die because of it, good riddance, the Earth says.

Since when has the medical profession conducted itself like the military industrial complex? The Spanish Flu? — James Riley

My reference was to Leprosy and the Black Death. Here's a thesis you can argue with if you like. When the stakes are cultural survival, individual rights are irrelevant. When there is a disease like leprosy with no cure that is a slow, disfiguring, death sentence, we the civilised democratic decent religious or irreligious people, care more to keep our society healthy than the rights of lepers. This is a stronger imperative than war, because one can be defeated in war and survive.

We take much greater risks every time we walk out the door. — James Riley

... and we take an even greater risk when we don't walk out the door. (But take the window-route, for instance, or we tunnel.)

Basically we have to distinguish between "outdoor risks" and "indoor risks".

My reference was to Leprosy and the Black Death. Here's a thesis you can argue with if you like. When the stakes are cultural survival, individual rights are irrelevant. When there is a disease like leprosy with no cure that is a slow, disfiguring, death sentence, we the civilised democratic decent religious or irreligious people, care more to keep our society healthy than the rights of lepers. This is a stronger imperative than war, because one can be defeated in war and survive. — unenlightened

I got your reference; though, due to the nature of the interwebs, I wasn't entirely sure you were not being facetious. Sounds like you were being straight up, and, if so, I think we are in agreement. In defense of the opposition however, I would be willing to submit that part of our "culture" that we want to survive, is the individual right to be an asshole. I'd hate to lose that in preservation of the remainder of the culture generally. After all, being an asshole is about as culturally American as one can get. It's what makes us us, shooting people, telling "the man" to fuck off, and whatnot. We wouldn't want to become Europe, after all.

I do agree that we might be defeated in war and survive (somewhat, like Vietnam) but my point was, the health care professionals (not insurance, big pharma, et al, but doctors, nurses, etc.) generally don't come to us begging for our support and so, when they do, I think they have more credibility. What, with the Hippocratic oath and all, I think they've got a pretty good track record. Whereas the MIC has a habit of lying and killing for the bottom line, at least every ten years or so. Sure, some causes are righteous (killing fascists and slavery supporters), but even then the profiteers circle like a drug/insurance company and worse, pounding on the drums of war.

Basically we have to distinguish between "outdoor risks" and "indoor risks". — god must be atheist

True. Hence my desire to see just how married the anti-vaxxers are to their risk analysis through the use of lotteries, money, and other incentives. If one is really concerned about one's life, then they would not get a vax in return for a Super Bowl Ticket, or a thousand dollars, or a free beer at the local saloon, etc.

But we could probably wait until the zombie apocalypse is actually upon us to start thinking in those terms.

Like the ‘lab escape’ theory - this is now being reconsidered. But in March-April 2020, it sounded like one, due to the way Trump seized on it. — Wayfarer

Yes, it's unfortunate that valid conjectures and concerns were debunked in the minds of many simply because Trump touted them.

Arguments for: protection of ones health, protection of fellow man, protection of the vulnerable, collaboration and cooperation, developing trust, facing group adversity with a group effort, civil duty (just as washing your hands and practising good hygiene also protects everyone else), — Benj96

I'll just respond to your list of points in favour of the idea that individuals are morally obligated to accept the vaccines.

Here are some counterarguments. They are not comprehensively thought through, so I will welcome any good arguments against them.

Firstly, the idea of protecting one's own health: I would say that is, if anything is, generally thought to be up to the individual. On that basis alone, very few would condemn you for refusing a vaccine. Also, if there is any doubt as to a vaccine's safety, then it is necessary to undertake an assessment of the risk, in each individual situation, of the vaccine versus what it is designed to protect against.

As to protection of fellow man, if fellow man is vaccinated and the vaccine is effective, then fellow man is already protected, whether or not you decide to be vaccinated.

Same goes for the vulnerable, if they are vaccinated, which they should have been before you, if they agreed to be, and if not then they are vulnerable because they chose to be or because the authroities failed them.

Collaboration and cooperation: I'm not sure of what this is intended to suggest; do you mean that one should simply always collaborate and cooperate with any officially promoted course of action to "develop trust", "face group adversity with a group effort" and that this is your "civil duty"? Of course I have no argument against washing hands and practicing good hygiene, since those involve no risk to self or others, and can only be beneficial.

Yes, it's unfortunate that valid conjectures and concerns were debunked in the minds of many simply because Trump touted them. — Janus

:100:

Not only unfortunate, but dangerous. While the remedy might be objective, impartial analysis and investigation into the merits of a contention, it would be a lot easier to do that if we didn't give a megaphone to a known dishonorable coward and liar. It sure makes the row harder to hoe when we have a dumbed-down electorate that will not consider the former because of a love for the latter. How will his truth ever have credibility when even a broken clock is right twice a day?

I wish I had the freedom not to be expected to go along with the hysteria of the provaxxers and I wish I had the freedom not to be expected to go along with the hysteria of the antivaxxers. But we don't live in a free world. — baker

But you do have the freedom not to go along if not the freedom not to be expected to go along. And of course not everyone will expect you to go along. To my knowledge vaccination is not mandatory in any democratic nations at least. I haven't checked to see if it is mandatory anywhere else; although I think I heard somewhere that it is in one part of Spain.

About the health insurance angle: if that's true it's a bad sign and would seem to indicate that the insurance industry, who generally do very rigorously analyze and assess risk, must think there is a degree of risk that is unacceptable, to them at least.

This is in accordance with my views. I have yet to here any convincing arguments against such views.

I have a question: Why does the discourse about this have to be so superficial?? — baker

Do you mean on these forums or in the public forum. If the latter, I agree that there is no open and rigorous public debate about this, or about anything else for that matter.

:up: What you say seems fair to me!

But we chose to take a risk. We take much greater risks every time we walk out the door. — James Riley

Risk is so hard to quantify for individual cases, though. That's why I can't see it as anything but a personal task for each individual to undertake on their own behalf; if they want to, of course.

We wouldn't want to become Europe, after all. — James Riley

Some of us already are Europe, alas.

the zombie apocalypse — frank

That's when 'the bodies pile high', isn't it?

Risk is so hard to quantify for individual cases, though. — Janus

It's easier to quantify if you offer incentives: $1.00? $10.00 $100.00? $1,000.00? $10,000.00? If no amount of money will get them to vax, then okay. Otherwise, when they take an offer, they've shown their colors.

Some of us already are Europe, alas. — unenlightened

:grin: I actually look up to and respect a lot of what I think of as maturity that comes from having two world wars fought in your back yard. It's gonna take us a while. "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." Winston Churchill.