I've got nothing against Chinese or Indian philosophy but I think that historically Europe has developed its own philosophy.

For example, in Classical Greek and later Christian tradition there is the concept of "justice" or "righteousness", of always doing what it right for yourself and for others.

So, I tend to doubt that we need Buddhism or Confucianism to learn how to be civilized. Plus, India and China are not necessarily superior to the West in this respect.

My intention was not emphasize Asian philosophy over a Western one. Those were just examples of how we can develop ethics inside society and then probably we would get lower violence/hate rates.

Keep in mind that if we study closer the western philosophy we can be so technical that people who not cares about philosophy will end up misunderstood. I guess the key here is try to be the simplest to enter in the young’s minds (example, students between 15 and 18 years old)

It doesn’t matter at all the academic religion because this issue is for professionals of philosophy. I mean teaching the basic principles using both Asian and Western philosophy and I believe it can fit...
I remember in my school my philosophy teacher never told me anything about Tao Te Ching neither Confucius.

We have to develop a better educational system and teach how bad the violence is. I feel we are living in an Era where people literally do not care about harm others. For this reason, it is time to focus on Ethics and provide more empathy along our relationships — javi2541997

I feel like education can only get you so far... how effective would that be if after the relatively short period of education, you have to participate in a system that essentially incentivises you to get ahead at any cost? Kids are not that dumb, a lot of them intuitively sniff out ethical teachings that don't match up with the world.

I guess what I'm saying is that if the rest doesn't change with it, ethics education will allways be an uphill battle, at best. Then again, you have to start somewhere so...

you have to participate in a system that essentially incentivises you to get ahead at any cost? — ChatteringMonkey

Agree! Then, this is why we are failing as a civic society because the “system” teaches us how to be so destructive in our environment. The rule here is Homo homini lupus. We all met someone in our university or work who is literally a lone wolf who doesn’t care if he/she sacrifices you for anything.

This is why I think the issue goes further than just educational system (which obviously is an important pillar) but what if we try of restart our establishment? Sounds impossible but I think is better late than never. I don’t see the benefits of being selfish and violent in this contemporary Era. It is time to come backs to easier times where the duty was happiness.

Probably you can call me a dreamer — javi2541997

For God's sake,



being a dreamer!

Ancient Wisdom For Modern Readers :point: HOW TO end violence?

I feel we are living in an Era where people literally do not care about harm others. — javi2541997

I know its very popular to think so but what evidence do you have that society is more violent or dangerous and getting more so?

Hatred is certainly better organised - we can thank social media for that one. But so what?

I would think that rather than teaching people that violence is bad, it might be better to teach/model the benefits of community and cooperation.

I remember in my school my philosophy teacher never told me anything about Tao Te Ching neither Confucius. — javi2541997

And how specifically would they help in the West?

being a dreamer! — TheMadFool

Thank you so much! I have in mind many weird aspects about "changing the world" but I end up unmotivated due to how drastic and cruel the world can be.

, it might be better to teach/model the benefits of community and cooperation. — Tom Storm

Agree! With this teaching tool probably we would avoid selfish and dangerous people in the society. But please, I still defend we have to provide kids how bad is a toxic behavior along the classmates...

And how specifically would they help in the West? — Tom Storm

I guess it can help in the West because it develops our paradigm. We can learn through Asian philosophy that there are other paths to grow up as a good person, or at least civic one.
Sometimes I feel most of the students do not understand about Greek or Roman culture. This is why we don't have many thinkers...
What about if we expand our paradigm getting involved in Taoism or Confucius? Probably can help a little bit.

______________________________________________
The Master said, "Acquired by unrighteousness,
wealth and rank are to me as a floating cloud."

Confucius, Analects XVII:15/16, translation after James Legge [1893], Arthur Waley [1938], and D.C. Lau [1979]

I guess it can help in the West because it develops our paradigm. We can learn through Asian philosophy that there are other paths to grow up as a good person, or at least civic one. — javi2541997

My problem with this is you haven't described just what it is in these philosophies that would be of use. What specific ideas would help and how? What is your evidence that these ideas make a difference?

What specific ideas would help and how? What is your evidence that these ideas make a difference? — Tom Storm

To be honest I do not have any evidence is these ideas make a difference. It is just a belief. I only want to improve our educational system with the goal of avoiding violence so I thought Buddhism or Taoism would be a good starting point because most of the people who follow this paths tend to be pacific.
Probably, it could help, but I don't put it on practice yet. It is only a dream.

Tom, I think you could like this following page where it shows what (more or less) I want to get about: Prudence, Goodness and Wisdom.

Thank you so much! I have in mind many weird aspects about "changing the world" but I end up unmotivated due to how drastic and cruel the world can be. — javi2541997

Cruel? That means you're no longer a dreamer pal! Join the :broken: Dreams Club.

What you don't want yourself, don't do to others. This is the Golden Rule with negatives, and so sometimes is called the "Silver Rule." This version is more in the right spirit of morality, which is to prohibit harmful and unjust actions or violations moral autonomy. — javi2541997

You have to see the shortcomings of such platitudes. A very raw person might actually prefer a bodily confrontation to endless discussions. The range of what is deemed socially acceptable is defined by the neccessary conditions for the reproduction of the ruling class.
Anything threatening those conditions gets suppressed by means of force far beyond a single persons abilities. Even democratic ideology tends to (falsely) recur to "quantitative justifications" (i.e. greater benefit for more people) when confronted with this.

I recently debated with Amity how important is to bring up on the table the serious issue of how violent our society is becoming. There are a lot of sad news about riots and fights where turns out the people involved are young (between 17 or 24 years old. For example: Luiz case Spain. — javi2541997

Yes, the discussion started here:

I know this thread is old but it is so necessary to put it on the table. It is crazy how the violence increased drastically in the recent years. A group of teenagers killed another citizen of 24 years old just for a simple discussion. Also a group of Dutch citizens murdered another one from their country just because was “fun” getting involved in a riot or fighting against strangers. — javi2541997

I feel we are living in an Era where people literally do not care about harm others.
— javi2541997

I know its very popular to think so but what evidence do you have that society is more violent or dangerous and getting more so? — Tom Storm

To focus on a specific group - there does seem to be evidence of a spike in teen killings.
Before we can even think about solutions to a problem, the causes need to be identified.

One of the main goals should be teach to kids how outrageous is the violence and how important is respect other people’s lives and integrity. — javi2541997

I think both children and adults know exactly how outrageous violence is. Victims and perpetrators alike.
When it comes to gangs involved in e.g. drug feuds and targeting pupils out of school, then the question is how to reach them and change behaviour. Why do gangs exist ?
This is not a new phenomenon - here's a history of Glasgow gangs:
It starts with a black and white photo of 'A gang fight on Tollcross Road, Parkhead in 1933'
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/history/history-glasgows-street-gangs-tongs-12252432

Recently:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/01/police-review-teen-killings-in-search-of-catalyst-for-spike-in-murders

Measures are being introduced to try to identify what is driving rising murder rates in the wake of a spike in teenage deaths in some of the UK’s homicide hotspots...
The development comes during a sharp rise in teenage murders and as concern grows that feuds aggravated by Covid lockdowns and months out of education will play out over the summer. Sources from the mayor of London’s violence reduction unit (VRU), which is coordinating the capital’s homicide reviews, say that by examining the murders of older teenagers and by involving children’s services they hope to understand why young people are increasingly drawn into violence...

Police intelligence confirms that gangs have targeted pupils out of school for disciplinary reasons or because of coronavirus restrictions – more than one million children in England were out of school in a single week last month for Covid-19-related reasons – a record absence rate...

Murder rates in London are now broadly in line with last year’s total of 127 murders; what is causing fresh concern is the proportion of teenage homicides, which has increased from a quarter of that total to around a third. So far, 22 teenagers have been killed in the capital this year compared with 14 in the whole of 2020. The youngest is 14-year-old Fares Maatou who died in April after being attacked in east London.

More widely, the data appears to continue trends observed last year when the number of homicide victims aged between 16 and 24 rose to 142 across the country in the 12 months to March 2020 – an increase of 32 on the previous year...

Harding said that pre-existing levels of violence caused by alcohol and drug consumption were compounded in regions such as south Wales by the latest development in the violent drugs business model – county lines.
Instead of gangs sending individuals to, say, Cardiff from Manchester, Harding said, they were now recruiting local dealers into their ranks, a development that was causing fresh tensions and violence. — Police review teen killings in search of catalyst for spike in murders

I only want to improve our educational system with the goal of avoiding violence — javi2541997

It will take more than that. Perhaps by looking at why the education system itself fails pupils.
Using punishment measures including exclusions and isolation booths for bad behaviour.

Exclusions are not a punishment or a deterrent: they’re a day off school.

Excluding pupils for a long period of time means they miss valuable teaching time and are immediately put at a disadvantage. — tes.com: a student take on why exclusions don't work

Punishment is violence in more ways than one. It's a 'vicious' circle.
So, how to turn the system into a 'virtuous' cycle ?
I doubt it can be done by teaching ethics. Depending.
Perhaps the teaching method counts as much as the content...geared to the needs/wants of the pupils.
Start with careful listening with respect for the individual rather than preaching or punishing.
Show rather than tell...

That's only the beginning. There is a widespread problem.
Psychopathic elites in power acting as role models.
Using derogatory and hate language and creating divisions. Reduction of services etc., etc.

Psychopathic elites in power acting as role models. — Amity

I think that is one of the major problems in modern society, and it includes pop stars and social media influencers with psychological issues.

There seems to be little point in teaching ancient wisdom, eastern or western, when the dominant culture is dictated by violent hip-hop, and the prevalent gang culture inculcates ideals like knives, guns, drugs, violence and rape. Women and girls are no longer women and girls but "bitches" and "hos", and some have even started referring to themselves in those terms.

A controversial issue in rap and hip-hop culture since its inception has been the violence and aggression of its hardcore styles. The prevalence of misogyny, sexism and sexual violence in the lyrics of the most-popular gangsta rap lyrics triggered public debate about obscenity and indecency and was a topic of U.S. Senate hearings during the mid-1990s.

Partner violence in hip hop - Wikipedia

As usual, it started in run-down areas of American cities and it is spreading everywhere though less so in rural areas where traditional culture is still dominant. IMHO the solution seems to be not the introduction of more alien cultures but the restoration of traditional culture.

A very raw person might actually prefer a bodily confrontation to endless discussions. — Heiko

This a problem we have to face then. This is why I want to develop a criteria where probably ethics can lead us in a more pacific relationship. Despite the fact most of the people want confrontation, doesn't mean endless discussions are clueless or worthless. To be honest I defend if we develop more dialogues probably we would limit or avoid wars, riots, chaos, etc...

It will take more than that. Perhaps by looking at why the education system itself fails pupils.
Using punishment measures including exclusions and isolation booths for bad behaviour.
Exclusions are not a punishment or a deterrent: they’re a day off school.

Excluding pupils for a long period of time means they miss valuable teaching time and are immediately put at a disadvantage — Amity

Agree! To be honest with you Amity, I never understood what a punishment in school actually means. When I was in school most of the teachers punished me without free hour because I was bad at maths. This created a trauma in numbers developing a low self-esteem on me in terms of mathematics. Sometimes I think they school failed on me because they did not want me as good math student at all.

I guess the key could be a class with zero punishment. If teachers start listening more to their students the tables could turn on. The ethics class should be prepared as a gift. Every classmate have to go to understand how to be a decent person. This is not depend on good grades or marks.
If the kids learn languages and maths since they are kids why don't teach them to some ethical values?

think both children and adults know exactly how outrageous violence is. Victims and perpetrators alike.
When it comes to gangs involved in e.g. drug feuds and targeting pupils out of school, then the question is how to reach them and change behaviour. Why do gangs exist ?
This is not a new phenomenon - here's a history of Glasgow gangs:
It starts with a black and white photo of 'A gang fight on Tollcross Road, Parkhead in 1933'
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/history/history-glasgows-street-gangs-tongs-12252432 — Amity

Thanks for sharing this article. Nevertheless, I disagree with your point that most of the people know how outrageous violence is. I feel like literally the young people love this issue. They are most of the time making riots and not respecting the authority at all... Covid is a good example in this context. Most of the people do not care at all. Instead of giving a good image as a young people they only make messes and chaos.
When I see or read a news where some young group kill another for no reason I feel how our education system is in a collapse. It is time to reinforce it.

Join the :broken: Dreams Club. — TheMadFool

Already joined :broken: :up: :rofl:

This a problem we have to face then. This is why I want to develop a criteria where probably ethics can lead us in a more pacific relationship. Despite the fact most of the people want confrontation, doesn't mean endless discussions are clueless or worthless. To be honest I defend if we develop more dialogues probably we would limit or avoid wars, riots, chaos, etc... — javi2541997

So you think that riots, war and chaos in themselves are "the problem"? I do not buy this for just one second. There have been to many of those who were legitimated by history.

I disagree with your point that most of the people know how outrageous violence is. I feel like literally the young people love this issue. — javi2541997

OK. You don't think that young people know very well that violence is 'outrageous' ?
Really ?
When it is perpetrated against them in different ways ? School bullying, being ridiculed and physically attacked is just one of many instances they can experience it. The media is full of it. You think you are alone in seeing this - that you are somehow exceptional ?

As to being violent themselves - they don't necessarily 'love' it. They might even hate that they are involved in it. Being part of a gang so as to fit in and not be attacked.
It takes resources to end this. To improve unfair conditions.

Also, it can be a reaction to the various abuses suffered or frustration against the systems they are embedded in. Family, society, politics, economics; a sense of powerlessness and lack of freedom...the list goes on.

They are most of the time making riots and not respecting the authority at all... — javi2541997

Anger is the issue. It may not manifest in riots but it is understandable, if not condoned, if they don't respect certain 'authority figures' and rebel. It is the only way their/our voices can be heard if politicians don't listen. But protests are now being criminalised * - anything against the government seen as violent and unpatriotic.
What good will prison sentences do ? It is a violence begetting violence.

*https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/19/environment-protest-being-criminalised-around-world-say-experts

In the UK, more than 2,000 people who took part in Extinction Rebellion protests are being taken through the court system in what experts say is one of the biggest crackdowns on protest in British legal history. The scientists also raise concern about efforts to silence climate protests in other parts of the world from the US to France, the Philippines to India. — The Guardian - Environmental activism being criminalised

Rebellion is in the air because the future is at stake.
Outrage caused by outrageous circumstances, local and global.

Most of the people do not care at all. Instead of giving a good image as a young people they only make messes and chaos. — javi2541997

I disagree and think you are wrong to come to such a generalised conclusion.
People care. Even if they sometimes appear not to. All ages are concerned. There is heightened anxiety but also apathy. Cue the Broken Dreams Club:

Thank you so much! I have in mind many weird aspects about "changing the world" but I end up unmotivated due to how drastic and cruel the world can be.
— javi2541997

Cruel? That means you're no longer a dreamer pal! Join the :broken: Dreams Club. — TheMadFool

Certain groups of people who perhaps have more time and energy can shake us all out of complacency.
Also, they are armed with knowledge...from scientists.

The experts warn that just months before a crucial global climate conference due to be held in Glasgow later this year, it is more important than ever that these groups are able to put pressure on politicians and highlight the role polluting corporations are playing in the escalating ecological crisis.

The letter states: “It has become abundantly clear that governments don’t act on climate without pressure from civil society: threatening and silencing activists thus seems to be a new form of anti-democratic refusal to act on climate … [we] therefore urge all governments, courts and legislative bodies around the world to halt and reverse attempts to criminalise nonviolent climate protest.” — The Guardian

There have been to many of those who were legitimated by history. — Heiko

It is not the same context... We live now in a democratic world. Probably in the most peaceful period humans ever lived by far...
Also, I do not mean about politics or revolutions. I am talking about violence without a solid base. Killing another person just because is funny or different from me... This is happening more than ever.

I am talking about violence without a solid base. — javi2541997

But what could such a "solid base of violence" be?

You think you are alone in seeing this - that you are somehow exceptional ? — Amity

No. I don't think I am the only one since the moment I share the same importance of avoiding as you do. But yes, sometimes I feel I am alone in this context or probably how I overact in this iusse. Am I sounding paranoid? Probably...

I disagree and think you are wrong to come to such a generalised conclusion. — Amity

It could be. I posted a generalised conclusion. Nevertheless I still defend that the porcentage of people not caring at all is big enough. Trust me. You can feel and see the violence and aggressive vocabulary everywhere. When you watch a football match and a random player calls to another an offensive word, everyone looks cheerful in it and it is disgusting as hell.
The masses are revolted and hesitated than ever. I guess we will not see a good pacifier leader as Muhammad Ghandi anymore...

But what could such a "solid base of violence" be? — Heiko

For example:

If I live in a backwards country where I cannot even go to university, it is acceptable and understandable to be violent with the government because it is literally limiting all my rights as a person.
But, it is not the same if I use violence as a normal/regular practice or even just to have fun. If I am in a mass and then I kill you because you are different, this is totally insane and should not be allowed in our modern Era.

The problem here is that people looks like not care at all about the government but confronting with individuals just to calm their own frustrations.

Killing another person just because is funny or different from me... This is happening more than ever. — javi2541997

Actually, killing (and eating) people because they were different or just for fun was widespread in Maoist China:

In certain areas including Wuxuan County and Wuming District, massive human cannibalism occurred even though no famine existed; according to public records available, at least 137 people—perhaps hundreds more—were eaten by others and at least thousands of people participated in the cannibalism
...
methods of slaughter included "beheading, beating, live burial, stoning, drowning, boiling, group slaughters, disemboweling, digging out hearts, livers, genitals, slicing off flesh, blowing up with dynamite, and more
...
In one case, according to official records, a person was bound to dynamites on the back and was blown up into pieces by other people—just for fun
...
In another case of 1968, "a geography instructor named Wu Shufang (吴树芳) was beaten to death by students at Wuxuan Middle School. Her body was carried to the flat stones of the Qian River where another teacher was forced at gunpoint to rip out the heart and liver. Back at the school the pupils barbecued and consumed the organs.

Guangxi Massacre - Wikipedia

So it seems that Confucius and Chinese philosophy was not much help ....

So it seems that Confucius and Chinese philosophy was not much help .... — Apollodorus

Dude, it helps... The problem here is that the people is not caring at all. The example you wrote above increases my arguments. It does not mater if we are in Asia or West. Guangxi massacre is another example as Holocaust. Society acting violent because the lack of ethics.

Certain groups of people who perhaps have more time and energy can shake us all out of complacency.
Also, they are armed with knowledge...from scientists.

The experts warn that just months before a crucial global climate conference due to be held in Glasgow later this year, it is more important than ever that these groups are able to put pressure on politicians and highlight the role polluting corporations are playing in the escalating ecological crisis.

The letter states: “It has become abundantly clear that governments don’t act on climate without pressure from civil society: threatening and silencing activists thus seems to be a new form of anti-democratic refusal to act on climate … [we] therefore urge all governments, courts and legislative bodies around the world to halt and reverse attempts to criminalise nonviolent climate protest.”
— The Guardian — Amity

Warriors Of Peace! :chin: It's come to that, eh?

Dr. Sun Tzu, professor of polemology from the Red Planet claims that Earthlings were at one time so violent that their peace movments were carrying out an armed struggle, their motto being, si vis pacem fac bellum. :chin:

Already joined :broken: :up: :rofl: — javi2541997

I'm gonna f**k your dreams until they wish they were your nightmares! — Sonia Kincaid

The example you wrote above increases my arguments. It does not mater if we are in Asia or West. Guangxi massacre is another example as Holocaust. Society acting violent because the lack of ethics. — javi2541997

What I am saying is that Confucius and Chinese philosophy do not seem to have prevented Chinese people from killing and eating people for fun.

And if Confucius and Chinese philosophy have failed to promote ethical behavior in China, why should we expect them to do so in the West?

If violence and other unethical behavior in the West is a recent development, then it seems more sensible to return to the traditional Western values that have prevented this development until now.

China has a high rate of domestic violence. In 2004, the All-China Women’s Federation compiled survey results to show that thirty percent of the women in China experienced domestic violence within their homes.

Crime in China - Wikipedia

There is also widespread cruelty to animals, massive environmental pollution, etc.