I don't think you are mistaken at all. I don't know about "objectifying", I don't believe it is happening to the extent that is being alleged, in any case. But I fully agree that it has something to do with fragile male egos. If something is aesthetically attractive then one should be able to say so, irrespective of whether it is the body of a woman, man, horse, dog, cat or anything. — Apollodorus
I like the way you think. I agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately society puts a lot of pressure on how women look. — Maximum7
And for some reason the female body tends to be the center of attention as exemplified by the growing trend for female pop singers to perform on stage in their underwear whereas males tend to cover up. Apparently, this is supposed to be an expression of "female empowerment", though it is rather difficult to follow the logic of it .... — Apollodorus
In addition, the female performers do not always appear to be be "in charge" or "empowered" at all. In many cases, they seem to suggest the role of street girls whilst male singers appear in fur-coats, expensive cars, and exaggerated jewelry. — Apollodorus
Personally I don’t see men as straight lines and angles at all, and I think that’s a rather limiting perspective that excludes more men than it describes. Plus, I find that men have the potential for some pretty impressive and even enjoyable arcs and curvature! — Possibility
I would love to surround myself with confident, awesome women who have an amazing sense of fashion because something that like speaks to her creativity and artistic eye. — K Turner
it would be nice if you could entertain the possibility that a woman can be semi-naked and still in charge of her own body... — Possibility
Because hairy hanging gonads aren't attractive to anyone. Let me summon a lady to confirm. — Hanover
I think the whole concept of videos staged by clever record companies that manipulate, exploit, and fool the public for profit is wrong. I would rather watch something more traditional, more authentic, and more dignified, like Spanish flamenco, Irish or Greek dancing, or even ballet that at least has some artistic and cultural value. — Apollodorus
Well, I never said that she cannot be. What I am saying is that those shows do not have that sort of effect on me. If as you say, male viewers’ assumption is supposed to be that a singer’s intention is “to make herself available to you - that by writhing around in her underwear, she’s obviously asking for it,” then that is a total miss because it doesn’t work that way on me at all. — Apollodorus
Other than that, I tend to agree with Wayfarer. Either someone is alluring or they are not. They don’t need to be in their underwear. :smile: — Apollodorus
but seriously, people are fooled into believing that they enjoy something that they actually don’t enjoy? — praxis
I think that people can be conditioned to enjoy certain things as opposed to others. — Apollodorus
After all, we are influenced by group think and by the dominant mentality and culture of the society we live in. — Apollodorus
Because she’s not doing it for you or for any other men - she is expressing a potentiality that is denied to most women. So she’s doing it for women. We watch and admire the power she has to act this way without fear. We see that it is possible, and it empowers women and girls to argue against expectations that we behave and dress modestly so as not to inadvertently ‘invite’ men to attack us. That doesn’t mean I’m going to dance on the street in my underwear, but it’s important to recognise both that I CAN and that the fact that I’m afraid to is not because I’m a woman, but because there’s still a problem with how women are judged and valued. — Possibility
Do you find that such women are generally creative in other ways, like writing fiction or playing saxophone? Because otherwise that's rather a bootstrapped explanation. — Kenosha Kid
Other than that, I tend to agree with Wayfarer. Either someone is alluring or they are not. They don’t need to be in their underwear. :smile: — Apollodorus
Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way women are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way women are seen by men. Undressing every time you want to sing something seems like a strange way to go about it and I doubt that it actually works. — Apollodorus
Your wording was awkward, stating “we are influenced by group-think”, — praxis
Just curious, would you ever say something like this to e.g. a gay man? Do gay men need to be more "respectable" and "cover up" so we can finally be respected by people like you? — K Turner
Also, doesn't good fashion bring a smile to your face? Maybe you come into work early in the morning and you see a woman in a beautiful coat, isn't that nice? There's so many different styles and colors. — K Turner
4) I never said anyone needs to "strive for my approval" — Apollodorus
Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way women are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way women are seen by men. — Apollodorus
You're talking about changing the way women are seen by men, so maybe start with yourself. — K Turner
there’s still a problem with how women are judged and valued. — Possibility
Lets first identify your position.
If I'm understanding you correctly you're implying that women degrade themselves through these performances and if only things were a little more proper relations between the sexes would improve. You may not have said this explicitly but it's what I'm gathering from going over this discussion. I could have misread, I'm not perfect.
— Apollodorus
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