What does it help if the national health institute says one thing, but on the ground level, even medical personnel is skeptical about vaccination? — baker

About 96% of doctors in the US are vaccinated, with half of the rest willing to be vaccinated. And this was back in June.

There is an overwhelming consensus about vaccines among experts. If you want to talk about how this message is disseminated, or stress the importance of the ground-level relationship between doctors and patiences, fine -- but that's not what was being discussed. Try to keep up.

We weren't talking about what happens on the ground between doctors and patients, so this is irrelevant. — Xtrix

It's the level on which trust in the medical system is build, or destroyed.

A point you keep avoiding. You want people to trust the medical system, but you want this trust to be build on something other than the actual interaction with said system.

Try to keep up. — Xtrix

You know, I will repay you and your ilk for this contempt.

No one is arguing perfection.
— Xtrix

Given your righteous indignation, given your contempt, your hatred: only perfection justifies and warrants those.

If you want to be justified hate people for not thinking and acting the way you think they should, then you better be perfect. — baker

I don't feel any of that. Your projections are your own.

Riiight, you are the embodiment of kindness.

We weren't talking about what happens on the ground between doctors and patients, so this is irrelevant.
— Xtrix
It's the level on which trust in the medical system is build, or destroyed. — baker

The issue which was being discussed was whether laypeople, knowing nothing else but that high consensus levels existed among experts, should go with that consensus or not.

Incidentally, there are plenty of people who would otherwise trust their doctors who are not doing so now. Why? Because this has become politicized. That is a function of belief systems and perceptions shaped largely by media (including social media), not by the messaging of doctors on the ground level.

You appear to be completely unaware of the effect that your attitudes have on people, or you just don't care.

And you're not alone in this. There are many high politicians and other influential people who have those same attitudes, and who appear to be oblivious to the effect that those attitudes have on people. That those attitudes are counterproductive to the goal of increasing people's trust in the medical system and the vaccination rates.

Try to keep up.
— Xtrix
You know, I will repay you and your ilk for this contempt. — baker

:broken:

I hold no contempt for you. If I did, I wouldn't bother talking to you at all. I don't think you're inferior to me -- I think you're wrong. You're confusing the two.

Riiight, you are the embodiment of kindness. — baker

Yes, because you're been so very kind in this discussion so far, starting the entire thing off with a condescending "irrelevant," and then accusing me of hatred and contempt. Spare me.

As long as the discussion is limited to philosophy forums, there should be no problem. — baker

There's no 'problem' per se in voicing opposition to whatever policy but I believe that in times of crisis, 1) one should give some slack to political leaders, their job is hard nowadays and you and I wouldn't be able to do any better; and 2) consider the need for a little social cohesion, for a bit more attention to the public good, i.e. more civic sense and responsibility to the collective is required in times of crisis than otherwise I think.

Certainly, spreading unfounded suspicions and rumors is beyond the pale, IMO, here or anywhere.

You need to serve somebody alright. It may be the Devil or it may be the Lord. So be careful which master you serve. Beware who is spreading rumors, and why. Who's your handler?

But look at Israel. Sky high vaccination rates achieved early on, yet the vast majority of covid patients requring hospital care are fully vaccinated. — baker

The issue is the variants, Delta mainly in Israel. This thing is mutating fast. So in terms if vaccination, it will require annual shots. Updates of the latest variants downloaded to your immune system via RNA updates. The technology allows it. And vaccination is not the only tool a nation should use. Masks should remain on the nose when in crowds or indoors, etc.

Some Croatian social scientists say that the reason why many people don't get vaccinated is because they don't trust the government. — baker

So a guy spoke on TV, huh?

:100: :up:

You know, I will repay you and your ilk for this contempt.
— baker

:broken: — Xtrix

:rofl:

Here's the thing: Why don't the vocal pro-vaccers (who claim to be taken hostage by the unvaccinated) put their money where their mouth is and limit health care (and other things) for the unvaccinated?

If the vocal pro-vaccers believe they are so right, so superior to the unvaccinated, then what on earth is stopping them from passing laws in accordance with that? — baker

"Doctor do no harm", "doctor help the sick", all that? Empathy/decency towards the ignorant/fearful/ungrateful? Ethics? I'm thinking there are a few reasons anyway.

^{• ‘So frustrating’: Doctors and nurses battle virus skeptics (Oct 8, 2020)
• Many COVID-19 patients insist ‘it’s not real’ until they die, nurse says (Nov 17, 2020)
• Nurses Are Dealing With Patients Who Think COVID-19’s A Hoax (Nov 25, 2020)
• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)
• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)
• ‘Crisis teams’ sent to hospitals in Oregon hard hit by COVID (Aug. 25, 2021)
• Largest real-world study of COVID-19 vaccine safety published (Aug 26, 2021)
• Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital (Sep 16, 2021)
• A New Nurse Struggles to Save Patients in a New COVID Surge (Sep 16, 2021)}

The trouble with vaccinations is that no one knows what the long term effects will be. Ingnorance is bliss, and potentially catastrophic. It's unfortunate that scientists created a virus that killed millions and continues to mutate (Andromeda Strain) , and because of this, I don't consider them a good source for advice. Way too much hubris for the little that they understand about health.

Now, unlike the U.S model, which is based upon pure hysteria and permanent pharmaceutical spending, the Swedish have done quite well. The only country that has adopted a nuanced approach to health.

You want to stop Covid and most other diseases. Stop eating like pigs (obese people are 3 time more likely to have severe problems), and stop stressing out like idiots. And by all means stop popping drugs that destroy your immune system.

I had a mild case, and my long-term immune prospects are quite good. Just treated it naturally. I won't have to take "boosters" every few months with..... what kind of long term effects?

The trouble with vaccinations is that no one knows what the long term effects will be. — MondoR

We do know.

This is one of the many claims that anti-vaxxers often use. In the "long run" we're all dead, as Keynes once said. 6 billion shots given, it's been 9 months and given a level of scrutiny unlike anything else in history -- I think it's safe to say they're safe. They're also remarkably effective.

It's unfortunate that scientists created a virus that killed millions — MondoR

This is unproven. But even if true, and it was created in a lab, scientists also created nuclear energy. That doesn't mean they had in mind Hiroshimo.

I don't consider them a good source for advice. — MondoR

And what, pray tell, *is* a "good source" besides virologists, epidemiologists, physicians, etc?

Now, unlike the U.S model, which is based upon pure hysteria and permanent pharmaceutical spending, the Swedish have done quite well. — MondoR

62% vaccinated -- better than the US. Apparently less anti-vaxxer bullshit/pushback in Sweden.

The US policy is not based on hysteria, it's based on the recommendations of medical experts -- just like in Sweden. The hysterics are coming from those, like you, who buy into the many false and misleading claims of anti-vaxxers, and anti-vaxxers themselves. The same people claiming the vaccines magnetized people, would sterilize them, had a chip implanted that could track them, etc. etc. I guess that's not "hysteria."

I had a mild case, and my long-term immune prospects are quite good. — MondoR

Wonderful. I guess that proves it.

It'll be precisely people like you who run to the vaccines when a virus comes around that's more deadly. And it'll happen.

This is one of the many claims that anti-vaxxers often use. In the "long run" we're all dead, — Xtrix

Sorry, your philosophy about living a healthy and vibrant life is rather sick, which is why I don't look to people like yourself for advice.

quote="Xtrix;599534"]created in a lab, scientists also created nuclear energy.[/quote]

Yep, they do like creating toxic substances, don't they?

62% vaccinated -- better than the US. Apparently less anti-vaxxer bullshit/pushback in Sweden. — Xtrix

Nuanced, not hysterical.

US policy is not based on hysteria, it's based on the recommendations of medical experts — Xtrix

The same chaps who created the virus. Good luck.

62% vaccinated -- better than the US. Apparently less anti-vaxxer bullshit/pushback in Sweden.
— Xtrix

Nuanced, not hysterical. — MondoR

So pushing for vaccines is "nuanced"? OK, so the US is nuanced as well -- just with far more pushback from hysterical anti-vaxxers. Got it.

US policy is not based on hysteria, it's based on the recommendations of medical experts
— Xtrix

The same chaps who created the virus. — MondoR

That's likely untrue, but the fact you believe it is telling. If you want to learn about it, see here:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01529-3

Even if it were true, it was created by a Chinese lab. I'm talking about the United States. Those aren't the "same chaps." You really don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

Like most anti-vaxxers.

So pushing for vaccines is "nuanced"? OK, so the US is nuanced as well -- just with far more pushback from hysterical anti-vaxxers. Got it. — Xtrix

Read about the Swedish story and compare the results. You are all hung up on sticking stuff into yourself and people. I don't mind you experimenting on yourself, but like some mad scientist, you have some sick desire to experiment on others, seeing as they are going to die anyway. A new justification for harming people?

Those aren't the "same chaps." — Xtrix

They are. You don't have a clue. Lol

The Pied Piper of Hamlin.

You are all hung up on sticking stuff into yourself and people. — MondoR

:rofl:

Another anti-vaxx troll.

In legal terms, this is a waiver of liability, if not even more than that. — baker

I think questions of liability are moot in this emergency situation; unless of course it could be proven that there had been negligence or fraud by vaccine developers during the testing stages.

The issue is whether the limited effectiveness of the vaccines warrants the hatred and the contempt that the vocal pro-vaccers are directing at anyone who isn't all that enthusiastic about the vaccines. — baker

I don't agree with hatred and contempt being directed at people, unless they are promulgating misinformation and conspiracy theories about the vaccines; if they are merely hesitant or fearful and are amenable to reason. then education, not hatred or contempt. would be the best approach.

As long as the discussion is limited to philosophy forums, there should be no problem. — baker

I don't know about that. I wonder how many spectators of this forum who don't themselves contribute there are.

That's just the usual run off at the mouth, .
Some things are known, and there are (historical) case studies.

What's known it's that the same mad group of scientists who led the charge for SAR Function Gain Research, are now leading the charge for vaccination. Everything else are stories made up by crazy people who believe in the philosophy that life ends for everyone, so why not experiment on them while they are alive? I wonder if this can be used as a Nuremberg Defense? This is the sickness borne of materialism, and there is no cure for it.

BTW, what do you think of a science-made virus that has killed millions of people and destroyed life as we once knew it?

A different type of people, pioneers:

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/242809899_1237101963461508_4861156168586191973_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=xbP4D1rXvToAX8XDWPy&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=dbd4658619aa2c97ce5d54269e3f01a2&oe=6152913E

Ya' took a wrong turn somewhere, .
The auditions to The Twilight Zone (or whatever it is) are over that'a way (pointing).

in times of crisis, 1) one should give some slack to political leaders, their job is hard nowadays and you and I wouldn't be able to do any better; and 2) consider the need for a little social cohesion, for a bit more attention to the public good, i.e. more civic sense and responsibility to the collective is required in times of crisis than otherwise I think. — Olivier5

This should be the case in a perfect world. But we are in a fucked up world, and, historically speaking, crisis is the most opportune time for the tyrant to make a move. I cannot hold it against anyone who harbors heavy mistrust and skepticism towards government, given the countless times it has betrayed the public.

The current debate can be reduced to fear of disease versus fear of tyranny. In the end we will find endless reasons why one should take priority over the other. My solution, however, is that we should all shed our fears, and take pleasure in getting sick, and in obeying irksome and/or unreasonable commands.

Ya' took a wrong turn somewhere, ↪MondoR.
The auditions to The Twilight Zone (or whatever it is) are over that'a way (pointing). — jorndoe

No opinion on how scientists have destroyed life on Earth as we once knew it. How about at least a bow?

Another anti-vaxx troll. — Xtrix

Not at all. Just pointing out that the madmen who created the virus are now, in high shrill and pure hysteria, trying to force everyone to partake in their madness. Their rationale: well heck, we are all dying sooner or later.

No opinion on how scientists have destroyed life on Earth as we once knew it. — MondoR

If you were worried about that, you're about 200 years too late.

If you were worried about that, you're about 200 years too late. — James Riley

Not really worried. More bemused of how humans go around destroying themselves in the name of science.

More bemused of how humans go around destroying themselves in the name of science. — MondoR

You're wrong, then. It's not in the name of science. Science is just a tool. We lie about how it's in the name of our children and other such nonsense. It's really in the name of money.