It's really in the name of money — James Riley

Totally agree.

Not at all. Just pointing out that the madmen who created the virus are now, in high shrill and pure hysteria, trying to force everyone to partake in their madness. Their rationale: well heck, we are all dying sooner or later. — MondoR

Anti-vaxxer says what?

Anti-vaxxer says what? — Xtrix

While vaccinations are problematic, I do recognize they provide an excellent revenue stream.

What I am fervently against is having a bunch of hysterical, crazies telling me what I should stick in my body, particularly if the same crazies were involved with the development of a virus that has destroyed the lives of hundreds of millions of people. I'm rather particular about who I take advice from.

Now, tell me again why long-term effects don't matter?

I do recognize they provide an excellent revenue stream. — MondoR

Keeping people alive is also a good revenue stream.

What I am fervently against is having a bunch of hysterical, crazies telling me what I should stick in my body, — MondoR

That sounds more like the anti-vaxxers than the vaxxers. I have yet to see Fauci, el al, act like hysterical crazies. Now, Tucker Carlson and the other conspiracy turds: there's some crazy.

particularly if the same crazies were involved with the development of a virus that has destroyed the lives of hundreds of millions of people. — MondoR

First, I don't accept that it was man made. Second, even if it was man-made, what evidence do you have that the "crazies" that developed it are the same "crazies" that are trying to get you to vax? Painting all scientists with the same brush is fundamentally stupid.

Finally, what evidence do you have the the lives of hundreds of millions of people have been destroyed? That sounds like hyperbole to me. Have you ever seen a life destroyed?

Pathogens ☣ have been with us since, well, forever or something.

Questions that seem relevant here by now:

In the history of ☣ outbreaks, how %many were (ab)used for (enduring political) power grabs?
Might be easier to find some examples of some opportunistic profiteering here and there?
And downright evil examples of someone intently creating an ☣ outbreak to some Machiavellian (or worse) end?
What did in fact take place, what does history tell us?

Pertinently, what exactly would you expect or (realistically) want in case of an ☣ outbreak?

Evident/justified responses would carry far more weight than (wild or baseless) claims and conspiracy theories.

:100: Another thing to consider, the first rule of Dr. Evil is to have an antidote before releasing the poison.

conspiracy theories — jorndoe

Are you referring to the conspiracy to cover-up the gain of function virus research in U.S. and Wuhan labs? Oh, we are well past that conspiracy. Wasn't it Dr Faux-ci who claimed that there was no gain of function research, and zero possibility that the virus came from the Wuhan lab (love the video of the lab filled with bats)? The trail was just too long and wide to cover-up. You know, it takes a lot of chutzbah to poop on someone's doorstep and then claim a bat did it.

What's your opinion of the poop laid down by medical science? Should I trust the pooper?

But we are in a fucked up world, and, historically speaking, crisis is the most opportune time for the tyrant to make a move. — Merkwurdichliebe

If you live in a tyranny, I feel sorry for you.

Oh "the Left" is the problem now... For fuck sake, do you guys ever try to make sense? — Olivier5

Both sides are the problem. I'm not on either side. I'm just asking questions that people refuse to answer and would rather nitpick posts than address the valid questions being asked.

Asking questions means that you haven't yet taken a side because you don't have all the information to be able to make a decision - mostly because both sides keep playing politics with the idea of personal choice.

sure, I suppose the "personal freedom" thing can make a point of sorts. It's just that SARS-CoV-2 doesn't care about anyone's freedom. The virus replicates propagates mutates unchecked in whatever fertile grounds, leaving victims in its wake, and that's a social thing with consequences as well as personal. — jorndoe

None of this addresses the issue of why someone should be vaccinated. As I pointed out, even the vaccinated can carry and spread the virus. So again, what is the point of vaccinating?

It seems to me that getting vaccinated or not has only implications to the individual deciding to get vaccinated or not. Everyone else each has this decision with the implications only involving themselves.

Taking your post at face value, I can only assume you've been living under a rock. You might try "doing your own research" and not on a philosophy forum. There are no experts here. Try the CDC web site. Or look up hospitals that are "booked" with Covid patients to the detriment of innocent-others who need those resources, for Covid and non-Covid reasons. Or there is always Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson. :roll:

There are no experts here. — James Riley

Many people here think that they are experts. They imply that science is like a religion where it's conclusions are never to be questioned. As an example, the info that the CDC has put forth has changed several times throughout the pandemic. Even Fauci said that masks don't protect well. Most people are just wearing cloth coverings and wear the masks improperly anyway.

I don't know about you, but I don't trust what the government and the state-run media says. The media has become a joke. They are all political propaganda machines.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with how science works. And apparently I was a fool to take your curiosity at face value. You're just another fucking idiot. Sorry to have wasted our time. Carry on.

If Covid-19 naturally mutated from a non-lethal virus to a lethal virus, then what is to prevent the regular annual flu from mutating into something more dangerous? Why aren't the annual flu shots being mandated if this is the case, and we should never stop wearing masks for the fear of some virus naturally mutating into something more lethal? — Harry Hindu

The flu sometimes does mutate in a more deadly strain but because the virus is endemic most people have some resistance to it, even against a new deadlier strain. So that never resulted in pressure on healthcare capacity as Covid has and does (I've not heard of triage because of the flu, except maybe the Spanish one). Since we all rather not live in continuous lock downs (I presume) to avoid total deterioration of the healthcare system, a way out is getting enough people vaccinated instead of infected.

Every policy decision was to avoid a collapse of the healthcare system, not to save every life out there, as the knock on effects of a healthcare system unavailable for any other type of care would result in even more deaths as those with other life-threatening diseases could not be helped and Covid-care wouldn't be much more than getting a bed in a tent in a parking lot of a hospital if you're lucky.

With proper detection, isolation and contact tracing, a lot of nasty bugs could be squashed before they really can do damage, as NZ did, but it requires political will which is often absent because $$$. Closing down air traffic with China is apparently problematic.

And there's definitely something to be said for including mask wearing as a general hygiene precaution in busy areas. As some cultures already do. Incorrect mask wearing notwithstanding as large scale research has confirmed.

If Covid-19 was manufactured in a lab, then that brings a whole host of other implications that we should consider and be fearful of. One implication is that we should be more angry at the scientists manufacturing lethal viruses and unleashing the on the world, than being angry at those that are unvaccinated, which the internet shows most blacks haven't yet been vaccinated thanks to the Left's scare tactics last year when Trump was president. So are you being racist by bashing the un-vaxxed? — Harry Hindu

This makes little sense to me. Whether it was manufactured or not doesn't change the healthcare problem. Being angry with those who allegedly made it, wouldn't diminish my annoyance towards those advocating bad policies or personal decisions.

I'm not aware of a causal link between "scare tactics" (which ones?) and getting a vaccination. Care to share your insights on that?

Apparently you are unfamiliar with how science works. And apparently I was a fool to take your curiosity at face value. You're just another fucking idiot. Sorry to have wasted our time. Carry on. — James Riley

So you're saying science is like a religion and it's conclusions should never be questioned?

I do know how science works. You only arrive at the correct answer after making all possible mistakes.

The flu sometimes does mutate in a more deadly strain but because the virus is endemic most people have some resistance to it, even against a new deadlier strain. So that never resulted in pressure on healthcare capacity as Covid has and does (I've not heard of triage because of the flu, except maybe the Spanish one). Since we all rather not live in continuous lock downs (I presume) to avoid total deterioration of the healthcare system, a way out is getting enough people vaccinated instead of infected. — Benkei

How did most people develop a resistance to the annual flu - by getting it and now they have the anti-bodies? Why doesn't the same concept work for Covid?

With proper detection, isolation and contact tracing, a lot of nasty bugs could be squashed before they really can do damage, as NZ did, but it requires political will which is often absent because $$$. Closing down air traffic with China is apparently problematic. — Benkei

I don't get this part. If closing down air traffic with China is problematic, which is in essence keeping people separated to prevent the spread then keeping people 6-feet apart and limiting the number of people in a room would be problematic. China was the one that prevented any information from getting out about the virus and how it originated. And if you believe anything the Chinese govt. says then that is problematic.

This makes little sense to me. Whether it was manufactured or not doesn't change the healthcare problem. Being angry with those who allegedly made it, wouldn't diminish my annoyance towards those advocating bad policies or personal decisions. — Benkei

Many people are arguing that people should get the vaccine to prevent the virus from mutating and spreading, but the research shows that the virus can be spread even by those that are vaccinated. And if the virus can mutate even among the vaccinated, then why are we not making the same argument regarding the common flu?

So you're saying science is like a religion and it's conclusions should never be questioned? — Harry Hindu

Your thinking that that might be what I was saying reflects negatively on your cognitive abilities. I can't pretend to have the skill required to pierce the fog that must be your mind.

I do know how science works. You only arrive at the correct answer after making all possible mistakes. — Harry Hindu

Google "Scientific Method." Then ask yourself if science, the CDC, Fauci, et al, should have had all the answers (to your satisfaction) on day one in November of 2019.

Also consider that Fauci, who was trying to reserve a limited mask supply for doctors and nurses, was dealing with a fundamentally stupid population that caused an unnecessary run on toilet paper. Fauci told the Harry Hindu's of the world that masks were not necessary because he knew that if he told the Harry Hindu's of the world that masks helped, then the Harry Hindu's of the world would have panicked and gone out and bought up all the N-95 and other masks, leaving the doctors and nurses with nothing. You see, Fauci is not only an expert, but he is smarter than you, and wiser than you. See how that works? But one thing he could not foresee is that Trump would not invoke the requisite war-footing to spin up masks as fast as we could have.

You are a classic example of the type of person who should not question. You should just do what you are told. I don't care if it's Alex Jones or Tucker Carlson who tells you. You aren't meant to be a thinker, to have curiosity, or to engage the world. That is not your lot in life. You need to get back in your cubicle or wherever it is you work and spin your wheels there. This part of life is over your head. This is no sleight on you. The world needs minions too.

This has been my morning finger exercise, limbering up to type more, for others who can appreciate my genius. Carry on, Harry.

How did most people develop a resistance to the annual flu - by getting it and now they have the anti-bodies? Why doesn't the same concept work for Covid? — Harry Hindu

The answer was in my previous post. It would eventually work for Covid but not before crippling the healthcare system for months and causing unnecessary deaths.

I don't get this part. If closing down air traffic with China is problematic, which is in essence keeping people separated to prevent the spread then keeping people 6-feet apart and limiting the number of people in a room would be problematic. China was the one that prevented any information from getting out about the virus and how it originated. And if you believe anything the Chinese govt. says then that is problematic. — Harry Hindu

I already answered that too. It's about political will of whatever relevant government. I'm not even talking about the Chinese government here but our own.

Many people are arguing that people should get the vaccine to prevent the virus from mutating and spreading, but the research shows that the virus can be spread even by those that are vaccinated. And if the virus can mutate even among the vaccinated, then why are we not making the same argument regarding the common flu? — Harry Hindu

The vaccination claim of manufacturers was never about reducing spread. People assumed this to be the case because this has been the effect of other vaccinations like polio or measles (but not the flu shot for instance, which is also a vaccination). Covid vaccination was and is about protecting people against hospitalisation so that the burden on the healthcare system would be acceptable. Initially it also reduced spread and with the delta variant a larger proportion of vaccinated people can pass on the virus than happened with previous variants.

To reduce spread, social distancing and mask wearing remains important for everyone, whether vaccinated or not.

Anti-vaxxer says what?

As I pointed out, even the vaccinated can carry and spread the virus. So again, what is the point of vaccinating? — Harry Hindu

The vaccinated are far less likely to spread the virus, because they’re far less to be infected by the virus. It’s that simple.

Which you’d know if you bothered to read anything.

but I don't trust what the government and the state-run media says. — Harry Hindu

Or medical experts, apparently. Fine— then don’t pretend like it’s only a matter of not having your very original questions answered.

I do know how science works. You only arrive at the correct answer after making all possible mistakes. — Harry Hindu

That’s not close to how science works.

Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers.

What do they all have in common? Some here have called them stupid but I don't think that's it; for one, they're all skeptical positions, a refusal to accept the official line and being cautious, last I checked, is a healthy habit, to be cultivated and mastered.

As far as I can tell, the underlying theme of these fringe groups is a mistrust of the establishment and this level of doubt in the powers that be could only have originated and perpetuated by governments continually, on a regular basis, breaking the people's trust in them.

In short, even though these groups are, on the whole, deletorious to society, they serve to keep the memory of past failures alive - we dare not forget our errors lest we repeat them. Let's give the devil his due.

What do they all have in common? Some here have called them stupid but I don't think that's it — TheMadFool

I don’t think so either.

Whether it was manufactured or not doesn't change the healthcare problem. — Benkei

It sure did make a difference, if the chaps running the show were the ones who developed the virus. It calls into question their biases, their judgment, and their intentions. Other countries have adopted completely different policies with far superior results. The problem with the U.S, is that it is run by the pharmaceuticals (immune suppressant drugs are rampant) and it is probably the most obese of all the countries. Obese people are 3x more likely to develop severe symptoms. Should vegetable only diets be mandated? . This is a very sick country, the sickest of whom are the ones who funded gain of function research in the U.S. and then China. Guess who?

In short, even though these groups are, on the whole, deletorious to society, they serve to keep the memory of past failures alive — TheMadFool

Yes, let's remember that they mad-scientists that created the virus are now running the vaccination show. Natural immunity is better than the silly 6 months of immunity you get from a vaccination, and I have NATURAL IMMUNITY. Vaccinated people are not only spreading the virus, but they are also a great environment for creating mutations.

The vaccinated are far less likely to spread the virus, because they’re far less to be infected by the virus. It’s that simple. — Xtrix

Rofl! It's already been shown the virus load is the same for vaccinated same vaccinated. Why should I take instructions and advice from a totally uninformed person like yourself? Listen, I think you are due for a booster. :)

Yes, let's remember that they mad-scientists that created the virus are now running the vaccination show. Natural immunity is better than the silly 6 months of immunity you get from a vaccination, and I have NATURAL IMMUNITY. Vaccinated people are not only spreading the virus, but they are also a great environment for creating mutations. — MondoR

Precisely my point although I think you were trying to be ironic.

It's already been shown trees virus load is the same for vaccinated same vaccinated. — MondoR

When did trees virus load work into this? And of course the virus load is the same for vaccinated same vaccinated.

How did most people develop a resistance to the annual flu - by getting it and now they have the anti-bodies? Why doesn't the same concept work for Covid? — Harry Hindu

The problem is that we are faced with a man-made virus that is very virulent, especially for those with weak immune systems (obese, overly drugged, poor living/lifestyle conditions). Eventually the human body will adapt, but I'd be crazy to take advice from the total idiots that created the human catastrophe.

they mad-scientists that created the virus are now running the vaccination show. — MondoR

Cite?

Natural immunity is better than the silly 6 months of immunity you get from a vaccination — MondoR

Cite? I heard antibodies fade faster with natural?

I have NATURAL IMMUNITY. — MondoR

It's not about you. You don't count.

Vaccinated people are not only spreading the virus, but they are also a great environment for creating mutations. — MondoR

Cite? I thought it was the people who didn't play ball that were responsible for the variants?

I guess maybe you are an expert after all. What lab do you use?

You're so smart, you couldn't figure out what I was saying? The virus load is the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated. That is why I'm the U.S. everyone has to wear masks again.