No, there has been more research since January, which the article itself said was needed. — Xtrix

Which of the three facts you claim so obviously show vaccines reduce transmission did this 'research' only recently discover?

No, there has been more research since January, which the article itself said was needed. — Xtrix

They ALWAYS need more research. It's a BIG business. So much for your pontification.

They ALWAYS need more research. It's a BIG business. So much for your pontification. — MondoR

Wait, so is Dr. Mondo saying science is not a process and must meet the childish demands of: "ANSWER! NOW!"?

I guess it's more important to say "GOTCHA" than having to actually think and comprehend transmogrification. After all, why "adult" if we don't have to? How's that buggy whip working for you?

No, there has been more research since January, which the article itself said was needed.
— Xtrix

Which of the three facts you claim so obviously show vaccines reduce transmission did this 'research' only recently discover? — Isaac

I’m sorry you’re having trouble reading, so I’ll repeat what I said:

Let’s try this in numbered form:

(1) If vaccines protect against COVID infections and
(2) you cannot transit COVID if you’re not infected, then
(3) who is more likely to spread COVID? The vaccinated or the unvaccinated? — Xtrix

Then (emphasis mine):

This would seem to make the (1) claim currently unsupported, yes. Until you realize that this article was last updated 8 months ago, and is originally from January. — Xtrix

The transmissibility is lowered even with lower symptoms, which is established. But with lowered infections, even more so — you can’t transmit it if you don’t have it. Research seems to have confirmed the latter as well, which isn’t always the case in vaccines:

'Gold Standard' Study Confirms mRNA Vaccines Prevent Infection

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210722/gold-standard-study-mrna-vaccines-prevent-infection

July 22, 2021 -- Clinical trials of mRNA vaccines have consistently demonstrated high effectiveness against COVID-19, but now a large, real-world study confirms that the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines are more than 95% effective in preventing confirmed infection.

Emphasis mine, to help your reading comprehension.

Here’s another, from Forbes (in case you thought this knowledge was obscure):

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2021/03/30/moderna-and-pfizer-vaccines-prevent-infection-as-well-as-disease-key-questions-remain/amp/

According to the study, which was conducted on nearly 4,000 healthcare workers, first responders, and other essential workers at the frontlines in eight locations across the country, the mRNA vaccines are 90 percent effective at preventing infection. That means in addition to stopping the development of Covid-19 symptoms, they can stop the disease from spreading from one person to another, too.

Predictably, you’ll find a way to ignore all this. I post it for others’ benefit, however, not yours.

This is relevant to the question @Harry Hindu was asking too.

I also came across this article in the Atlantic by a practicing physician, worth a read:

No, Vaccinated People Are Not ‘Just as Likely’ to Spread the Coronavirus as Unvaccinated People

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/620161/

In the aftermath of the Provincetown announcement, many who had gotten their shots were confused about what the news meant for them, especially when headlines seemed to imply that vaccinated individuals are as likely to contract and transmit COVID-19 as the unvaccinated. But this framing missed the single most important factor in spreading the coronavirus: To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period. If this was mentioned at all, it was treated as an afterthought.

I wonder if this means anti-vaxxers and their enablers will now stop saying the vaccinated and unvaccinated both spread the virus equally?

:chin:

I’m going with: no.

Let's look say a real study about virus loads instead of pop journalism propaganda.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-infection-unvaccinated-and-vaccinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus

I think we're need to put two masks on vaccination propagandists. One to keep their viruses out of people's faces. The other to keep their sound out of people's ears. They only know what they read in pop headlines.

Like the Nazis, they like experimenting with people.

From your Googled source:

A new study found that people vaccinated against coronavirus who have also contracted the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2 could have similar peak levels of the virus as people who have not had a vaccination.

See the bold emphasis.

Now let’s see if you can understand what that means…

No? Okay, I’ll just give the answer:

This is dealing with breakthrough cases. You don’t seem to understand what that is, so I encourage you to read about it.

Or simply go back to sleep.

I understand exactly what it means. It means you have no idea what you are talking about. By the way, would you mind putting your face mask on? I don't want that dangerous load of virus that you are carrying, even if you show no symptoms. Thank you.

pop journalism propaganda. — MondoR

The Annals of Internal Medicine? :rofl:

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-1577

Anti-vaxxers are funny.

What the heck are you talking about? Trying to switch direction?? It just demonstrates why no one should listen to you or any forced vaccinator.

breakthrough cases — Xtrix

like the new masking protocols: All the fault of Dr. Mondo, el al. Negligent homicide, at the very least.

They only know what they read in pop headlines. — MondoR

Pop headlines…Web MD is pop journalism? The study they are discussing is from the Annals of Internal Medicine.

Eh, nevermind.

What the heck are you talking about? Trying to switch direction?? — MondoR

I’ve been talking about the exact same thing. Try reading and thinking before responding like a child.

Keep googling, maybe you’ll find something from Infowars.

You can tell he’s a scholar, can’t you?

Makes Isaac look reasonable.

:point: :up:

Like the Nazis, they like experimenting with people. — MondoR

Great source of information. You like the pithy one-liners. Of course, the statement is totally ridiculous on so many levels. But, for those who want to experiment on human beings, there are plenty who long for the jab. Remember, every six months otherwise you are in jeopardy.

But, for those who want to experiment on human beings, there are plenty who long for the jab. — MondoR

We don't want to experiment on human beings. They've already stepped up.

None of this addresses the issue of why someone should be vaccinated. As I pointed out, even the vaccinated can carry and spread the virus. So again, what is the point of vaccinating? — Harry Hindu

The point of getting vaccinated is that the vaccinated are far less likely to carry and spread the virus. Does it have to be all or nothing?

How do you know you exist? Cite? — MondoR

I don't. I never said I did. See how that works? — James Riley

:rofl:

The point of getting vaccinated is that the vaccinated are far less likely to carry and spread the virus — Janus

If you're in close contact with anyone who has a chronic condition, you should assume that you're a carrier even if both of you have been vaccinated.

It's a mistake to spread the rumor that vaccinated people can't transmit.

The main reason to be vaccinated is to potentially save your own life.

It's a mistake to spread the rumor that vaccinated people can't transmit. — frank

Who did that?

The main reason to be vaccinated is to potentially save your own life. — frank

Is that a better reason than to save the life of another? Maybe not take up a bed they could use?

If you're in close contact with anyone who has a chronic condition, you should assume that you're a carrier even if both of you have been vaccinated.

It's a mistake to spread the rumor that vaccinated people can't transmit.

The main reason to be vaccinated is to potentially save your own life. — frank

I haven't said that vaccinated people can't transmit, though; I said that they are far less likely to transmit. If you are without co-morbidities and under 70, your chances of dying from covid, even if unvaccinated, are quite small apparently.

So, I see being vaccinated as playing your part in reducing, however minimally, the overall risk of infection, serious illness and death, and hopefully enabling our societies to get back to some reasonable semblance of normality, because the cycle of successive waves of infections and lockdowns cannot be sustained without great general suffering and increased rates of poverty, illness and death from causes other than covid.

I don't think it is unreasonable to think that, if the aforementioned cycles continue for sufficient time, it could lead to general economic and even civilizational, collapse. If that happened it may indeed be the best thing for the environment, for other species and ultimately for humanity itself, but we don't want to bring that about do we? Wouldn't we prefer to opt for trying to find an easier, more generally beneficial transition to reduced populations and sustainable living, no matter how unlikely such an outcome might seem?

It's a mistake to spread the rumor that vaccinated people can't transmit.

The main reason to be vaccinated is to potentially save your own life. — frank

At this point you’re just lying. Either that or you haven't been paying attention.

Vaccinated people can transmit the virus, when they're infected. Those are called breakthrough cases. Whether those who are vaccinated and get infected spread the virus as readily as those who are infected and unvaccinated is undetermined at this time. But that entirely misses the issue, because breakthrough cases are rare compared to cases in the unvaccinated -- which is why we see the unvaccinated account for the vast majority of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

Also, the "main reason is to potentially save your life" depends on your motivations. If you're relatively young and healthy, or otherwise don't care about getting the flu or COVID because you think you can handle it, and you refuse the flu shot or the COVID shot, you're simply overlooking the fact that it's not necessarily all about you. This apparently has to be repeated over and over again.

I think it's worthwhile to take a moment here and just reflect on the absurdity of this situation.

Here we are in a pandemic, and we all want to get back to normal. I also assume we don't want to harm other people if we don't have to. We have a vaccine that is very safe, very effective, and helps slow or stop the spread of the virus.

And yet we're here, on a philosophy forum (where you'd think has a higher level of critical thinking skills and respect for science), still debating with people (mostly trolls) about whether we should get vaccinated or not.

It's like playing whack-a-mole. One absurd claim made and debunked, another two pop up.

It loops us back to the OP question:

They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"? — Xtrix

It comes down to whether or not anyone who's "on the fence" is even listening. I guess we have to assume they are -- otherwise this is an exercise in futility. Although I have learned a bit about communication, psychology, and delusion.

If you are without co-morbidities and under 70, your chances of dying from covid, even if unvaccinated, are quite small apparently. — Janus

Young people without comorbitities do die or end up with permanent loss of function. They have been all along.

My concern was about messaging: if you're vaccinated you can't transmit. That's not true.

I don't think it is unreasonable to think that, if the aforementioned cycles continue for sufficient time, it could lead to general economic and even civilizational, collapse. — Janus

I think it would take more than pandemics and lockdowns, but yes there's a great deal of hardship that accompanies lockdowns.

this point you’re just lying. Either that or you haven't been paying attention. — Xtrix

I'm mostly ignoring you at this point, just FYI.

My concern was about messaging: if you're vaccinated you can't transmit. That's not true. — frank

So your "main concern" was, as usual, a complete fabrication, since no one here has once said that. Or perhaps you struggle with reading comprehension -- which is fine, but at least give us a heads up about that.

How bizarre it is to have to create straw man after straw man, an imaginary enemy, just to feel good about yourself when you tear it down. Maybe sad is a better word.

July 22, 2021 -- Clinical trials of mRNA vaccines have consistently demonstrated high effectiveness against COVID-19, but now a large, real-world study confirms that the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines are more than 95% effective in preventing confirmed infection.


Emphasis mine, to help your reading comprehension. — Xtrix

Limitations:Predominantly male population; lack of data on disease severity, mortality, and effectiveness by SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern; and short-term follow-up.

Emphasis mine, to help your reading comprehension.

It's a complex matter involving the degree to which the vaccines effect viral populations in the nasal mucosa, the extent to which such effects wear off, how this rate differentially affects the mucosal population relative to the vascular population, the extent to which symptoms exacerbate viral shedding, the extent to which behavioural changes affect opportunities for transmission, the effect of missing the very severe cohort (usually hospitalised and so removed from real-world transmissability studies)...

Basically, not anywhere near your naive attempt at a condescension.

I wonder if this means anti-vaxxers and their enablers will now stop saying the vaccinated and unvaccinated both spread the virus equally? — Xtrix

Here's an article by a practising physician...

Rapid and efficient memory-type immune responses occur reliably in virtually all unvaccinated individuals who are exposed to SARS-CoV-2. The effectiveness of further boosting the immune response through vaccination is therefore highly doubtful. Vaccination may instead aggravate disease through antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). — Professsor Sucharit Bhakdi MD, Professor Emeritus of Medical Microbiology and Immunology

I wonder if that means pro-vaxxers will stop saying the vaccines are safe and effective...oh no wait, it won't...because it's just the opinion of one fucking physician and no one in their right mind would change their entire belief system on that basis...

Vaccinated people can transmit the virus, when they're infected. Those are called breakthrough cases. Whether those who are vaccinated and get infected spread the virus as readily as those who are infected and unvaccinated is undetermined at this time. But that entirely misses the issue, because breakthrough cases are rare compared to cases in the unvaccinated — Xtrix

The number of COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC are an undercount of all SARS-CoV-2 infections among fully vaccinated persons, especially of asymptomatic or mild infections. — CDC

@frank is right. If you continue to spread this idea that vaccines generally make you unable to spread the virus (apart from a few 'rare' breakthrough cases) you'll worsen the problem. Recorded breakthrough cases are rare but that is a function of the recording system (people need to actually bother getting tested which is unlikely in asymptomatic cases) We have no idea what the viral load is in people who have been vaccinated longer than four month, but we do know that it will be significantly higher than that of a person vaccinated yesterday (in the case of exposure to the virus). We also have no idea of the effect of either on the viral population in the nasal mucosa which is the main site for transmission. It is dangerous to spread the myth that vaccines reduce transmission in all but a few 'rare' cases.

Predictably, you’ll find a way to ignore all this. I post it for others’ benefit, however, not yours.

Fairly consistent North American findings:

COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States (Jul 30, 2021)

Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases, Hospitalizations, and Deaths, by Vaccination Status — 13 U.S. Jurisdictions, April 4–July 17, 2021 (Sep 17, 2021)

Vaccinated make up minority of severe COVID-19 hospitalizations in Minnesota (Sep 22, 2021)

Mapping America’s hospitalization and vaccination divide (Sep 23, 2021)

Hospitalizations [Ontario] (Sep 24, 2021 - as of typing)

By now, denial seems a bit lame.