True by definition. If it's justified, it's not evil. — unenlightened
what needs to be argued is that certain acts are indeed evil (i.e. unjustified). — Michael
You really need me to argue that? I don't think I can. Take a look around. — unenlightened
he free will theodicist and utilitarian could simply argue that because certain harmful acts are justified for the greater good it then follows that these harmful acts aren't evil, and so the problem of evil is dismissed on the grounds that evil doesn't actually exist. — Michael
Couldn't this line of reasoning be used to justify any action? It's the ends justify the means sort of morality. Genocide isn't evil if it leads to something better. — Marchesk
If evil is defined (in part) as being unjustified. If it isn't defined in this way then genocide could still be evil even if justified by the greater good. — Michael
We might agree that sometimes war is necessary and therefore justifiable, but it's still evil. — Marchesk
And if you don't define evil as being unjustified then you need to defend the claim "nothing can justify evil, no amount of good.". — Michael
When it comes to God, the question is why evil would ever need to be justifiable. The FWD is that the existence of free will does this, but God's omniscience should allow him to only create those who will choose not to do evil.
Otherwise, God's omniscience is in doubt. The theist will need to argue that God didn't know Lucifer would rebel, and somehow this lack of knowledge is not a limitation on knowing everything, because presumably free will prevents such knowledge.
So then the argument becomes about God being able to know everything to prevent evil. — Marchesk
That he has a good reason for doing so would follow from the premises, even if we don't know what that good reason is. — Michael
Or the concept is simply flawed, resulting in defenders of it claiming that we mere mortals can't know. — Marchesk
And what are those good reasons? You just stated that God must have a good reason, but it can't be known by us, which seems like a huge cop out. — Marchesk
We don't need to know what the good reasons are for "there are good reasons" to follow from the premises. — Michael
Just as we don't need to know what's in the box to infer from the evidence that something is in the box (e.g. it weighs more than it would if empty). — Michael
But if the argument can't show what the good reasons are, then why isn't the argument flawed? The argument is assuming there is one. — Marchesk
That's because we know the difference in weight between an empty box and one that has something in it. That analogy doesn't apply here.
the existence of free will justifies the existence of harm, and if evil is unjustified then this harm isn't evil.
It seems to me that you're treading close to equivocation, where the so-called evil I see by looking around is evil in a sense in which "not justified" isn't part of the definition. — Michael
I'm not treading close, I'm jumping in with both feet. — unenlightened
Then you haven't justified your claim that nothing can justify evil. You admit that your prior response "True by definition. If it's justified, it's not evil." is equivocation, and equivocation is a fallacy. — Michael
No. I'm defining evil as a voluntary unjustified act of harm. — unenlightened
That certain voluntary acts of harm are justified by no means implies that they invariably are. Do you think that? I've not come across anyone that thinks so. — unenlightened
The free will theodicist argues... — Michael
They're wrong then. — unenlightened
You seem to simply be asserting that certain voluntary and harmful actions cannot be justified, — Michael
Yes. I'm not going to argue about that, or cite the bible; take it or leave it. — unenlightened
I have a reasoned argument based on my definition of evil. — unenlightened
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.