Probability is not certainty, though, which is my first issue with this, since the angry expression of certainty only prompts "pushback" from defenders of the status quo, and then what ensues is a pissing contest. — Michael Zwingli

To draw a distinction between the mindset of individual cops and law enforcement is to perpetuate systemic racism. All those cops could have been black and it would not have made a difference if they gave the white boy with an AR a pass. That implicates the system (law enforcement) and systemic racism. That is the genesis of the anger that causes the "riots" in the first place.

The more significant problem with the statement "R would have been shot" is that it suggests that "R should have been shot", or "I wish that R had been killed", which is a pretty fucked up way to feel, as if the two wrongs could possibly "make a right". — Michael Zwingli

That goes to my point about push-back vs hypocrisy: the burden is not upon those who want the system to quit shooting blacks when they don't need shot: but burden is upon the system to quit shooting blacks or start shooting whites under similar circumstances. It's the system's choice, not the people. "Quit doing what 'we' are complaining about, or start being equal about it: Your choice." So far, we aren't seeing any movement on the "Don't shoot blacks" side of the equation, hence the protests and when protests do not work, we have riots. And when riots don't work, it's war. And it won't be the people's fault. Again, law enforcement (including the judge and the shooter) teach: Arm yourself! Oakey dokey. Where two wrongs don't make a right, we will throw in a third and it will be on the system, not the people.

Another problem with the speculation about what the outcome might have been if R had been "black" is that it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which appears to be whether justice was served by the trial. — Michael Zwingli

Justice was not served by the trial. And for those of you who think I'm not getting it because I wasn't there or didn't follow the trial closely, you need only go back up and re-read what I said about scope of review.

If you wanted to do the research, I am confident that you would find that the mean high school and college GPAs as well as standardized test scores and scores on intelligence tests are all much higher among, say, electrical engineers than among police officers or firefighters.
— Michael Zwingli

It might be true, especially when you are comparing a group who may not need college level training, and another group who needs at least a BA, and maybe an MA.

If you collect the relevant statistics and display them in rank order, low scores to high scores across the board, there probably will be more high scores among engineers and doctors than among police officers and firemen. But... so what?

Training for even professional jobs is at least partly on-the-job. Just because your engineer has higher scores, doesn't mean that he or she would have the ability to function as a police officer, and just because the police officer doesn't have a BA, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have the wherewithal to earn one, even in engineering. — Bitter Crank

Yowsa! Those IQ tests should not be used to judge human beings! I have known geniuses who are totally unfit human beings. IQ testing in our schools, radically changed how we judge human beings and this has serious moral consequences. IQ testing is the mentality of the Military-Industrial complex and is about helping school staff select out those best suited for higher education for military and industrial purposes. This is our take on a German model of education and is what gave Germany reactionary politics and lead to Hitler and Nazis, and Texas thinking it is a good idea to have citizens report their family members and neighbors to authority. (law to prevent abortions).

What goes with this education is merit hiring. An arguably very bad way of judging people, that almost guarantees only those who have been processed through college will have an opportunity to have high-paying jobs or sit in the seats of power. An ugly reality that makes intelligent parents hysterical if their child is not in the top 10%. A few large employers have gone back to judging people by interviewing them to determine their drive and their potential and at least one company found ex-cons who were superachievers and the company saw in them a great benefit. This is different from not giving someone a chance if the person does not have the right education, from the right college, or has something else a file that is detracting. Those files used to be protected private information.

That effort to know people and the willingness to be part of their development goes with the democratic model of industry and our democracy would be much stronger and less violent if we had better awareness of the importance of childhood and education and believing in human beings.

„Every society has the criminals it deserves.“ — Emma Goldman anarchist known for her political activism, writing, and speeches 1868 - 1940

Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1221440-val-mcdermid-a-society-gets-the-criminals-it-deserves/ — quotepark

We created Rittenhouse and Travis McMichael, 35; his father, Gregory McMichael, 65; and their neighbor William Bryan, 52. The blood is on our hands.

Those IQ tests should not be used to judge human beings! — Athena

It might seem that there's more to a person than his intelligence but who in the hell decided to call our species homo sapiens (wise man)? Let's overlook this misnomer and what it implies for the moment and discuss the significance of intelligence (IQ).

Are we to hold a mentally challenged individual (low IQ) responsible for an act that results in death, injury or loss of property? Let's, arguendo, say retarded people are held to account for their actions. That they surely didn't intend the illegal act must amount to something: like should be treated like and so, unlike should be treated...? With malice aforethought vs. unintentional/accidental/plain bad luck.

As one poster in another thread said, many of the criminals who've been found to have low IQs are in prison precisely because they have low IQs. There are some wrinkles to iron out, nevertheless doesn't that mean we're mistreating (sending to the slammer is a form of psychological torture and the death penalty has its own issues) the disabled (low IQ folks)? There really is no difference between a gaol and a mental asylum, psychologically/psychiatrically speaking but as to the manner in which they're treated, they're poles apart. :grin:

many of the criminals who've been found to have low IQs are in prison precisely because they have low IQs — TheMadFool

And, worse, mental health problems. Most serial killers were abused as children. Most homeless people have mental health problems. This is what's sickening about people with privileged upbringings claiming a la the Monopoly effect that they're just hard-working and those left behind just don't want it enough.

I think its more specific than politics, its race. As you observed, even normally astute, academic types lose their shit as soon as someone says “black”. Fact after fact after fact unanswered, they just shift to a different attack vector and completely dismiss how they were just uncontroversially shown to be wrong. Its emotionally driven fantasy.
It would be nice to have a real discussion about any of it but as has been shown quite clearly in this thread you just can’t. You might say something that contradicts the dogmatic narrative and then there is no chance at an honest discussion. — DingoJones

Since 1958 we have focused on preparing our young to be products for industry. We have been teaching them what to think, not how to think. Now everyone is in the streets screaming what they want others to think, and part of not feeling heard is smashing windows and ransacking the city like a horde of barbarians sacking Rome.

I have been a political activist and after attending public hearings at the local and state levels, it is clear to me we are not well organized for democracy and resolving our problems through discussion. The internet is a great opportunity to improve our reality, but that means informed citizens taking on the responsibility of expanding our social consciousness and increasing awareness of democratic principles.

We have a ways to go to reach our democratic human potential and not many people who want to focus on that. As long as the Military-Industrial Complex controls education we are not going to get there.

:up:

Now everyone is in the streets screaming what they want others to think, and part of not feeling heard is smashing windows and ransacking the city like a horde of barbarians sacking Rome. — Athena

Yeah, screaming "Stop murdering us in the streets" like the bunch of fascists they are :vomit:

It might seem that there's more to a person than his intelligence but who in the hell decided to call our species homo sapiens (wise man)? Let's overlook this misnomer and what it implies for the moment and discuss the significance of intelligence (IQ). — TheMadFool

Well, we certainly have agreements on that point! I have been looking into this problem, and it appears there is a strong argument that God puts thoughts in our heads. That is a different topic, but one that might be worth exploring.

Are we to hold a mentally challenged individual (low IQ) responsible for an act that results in death, injury or loss of property? Let's, arguendo, say retarded people are held to account for their actions. That they surely didn't intend the illegal act must amount to something: like should be treated like and so, unlike should be treated...? With malice aforethought vs. unintentional/accidental/plain bad luck.

Ouch, ouch :gasp: please that is a totally different subject, but boy would it interesting to explore that. The US has a terrible record of incarcerating mentally disturbed people. Perhaps that goes with our unrealistic notion of a god and humans? What you said about intent, separates the Rittenhouse trial from the trial of the 3 men behaving as the KKK hunting down the coon.

As one poster in another thread said, many of the criminals who've been found to have low IQs are in prison precisely because they have low IQs. There are some wrinkles to iron out, nevertheless doesn't that mean we're mistreating (sending to the slammer is a form of psychological torture and the death penalty has its own issues) the disabled (low IQ folks)? There really is no difference between a gaol and a mental asylum, psychologically/psychiatrically speaking bit as to the manner in which they're treated, they're poles apart. :grin:

Oh yes, don't get me going on this one because I am highly emotional about our hugh justice failures. Have you noticed all the men being released from prisons lately?

Because my son, and also years later, a dear retarded friend were accused of crimes, I know our justice system is very corrupt! The goal is to nail someone for the crime and the system favors this goal, not justice. Thankfully I found an honest cop in a less than honest community, who got the case against my son reopened and the guilty teenager was correctly identified clearing my son of any wrong. Even the attorney I paid $300 to defend my son, was a corrupt SOB. He denied my son the lie detector test that he requested and then he decided to base my son's defense on convincing the court my son's friend did the crime. When I reeled in horror protesting my son's friend had nothing to do with the crime, the attorney said "what do you care as long as I get your son off". That SOB walked with my $300 and I never spoke to him again so he did nothing to earn his fee.

My retarded friend was not as lucky because his attorney stopped at getting my friend to plead guilty to a lesser crime rather than risk prison for a worse crime. There is no choice when the attorney is just out to make an easy buck and doesn't care about justice, and the charged person does not have the money for a better defense attorney.

Yeah, screaming "Stop murdering us in the streets" like the bunch of fascists they are :vomit: — Kenosha Kid

I suspect your goal was to be sarcastic and to ridicule what I said, please correct me if I am wrong.

I have been the person on the street and in public hearings standing on a table screaming for justice and escorted out by the police with the threat of being arrested for criminal trespassing. I know about acting out to get media attention and to have a voice strong enough to be heard when advocating for the homeless. This political activism was especially important when the state took my grandchildren illegally and made them wards of the state. We had a new governor who wanted to change things, so it was a good time for grandparents to unite and bring about a change in family law and the operation of the children's protective service. We fought for our grandchildren and won politically and I got my grandchildren back.

My granddaughter has been very active in the last several years and has gone to jail where was brutally abused by jail staff. My sister has also been extremely active on the streets, in hospitals, and in the state legislature's public hearings.

What was the point you wanted to make?

I suspect your goal was to be sarcastic and to ridicule what I said, please correct me if I am wrong. — Athena

:100:

What was the point you wanted to make? — Athena

That I think your friends and neighbours being murdered in the streets might give you something more to aim for than

screaming what they want others to think... like a horde of barbarians sacking Rome. — Athena

But it's disappointing to hear that this was your motive for protesting on behalf of the homeless. I imagine others taking part did it because it was the right thing to do, not out of an egomaniacal impulse to impose their will on others for the sake of it.

:up:

:up:

Since 1958 — Athena

Since the Civil War. Since when public schools were built to look like and be like places of business.

As long as the Military-Industrial Complex controls education we are not going to get there. — Athena

Might as well include the NFL, NBA, and MLB regarding athletics at schools.

Since 1958 we have focused on preparing our young to be products for industry. — Athena

If you don't do it, somebody else will. As a self-proclaimed religious person I naturally cast doubt on the value, rather prominence of what we believe to be (success in this) life as compared to some arbitrary (in my limited understanding) absolute nature. Even still, life, whatever it is, has at least fleeting moments worthy enough to call it "worth living", does it not? These moments are either yours for the taking through training end education, or missed opportunities others will indulge in. And possess full control over any experience, good or bad, free or restricted, democratic, or autocratic, you or any of your own will ever experience here, if given the chance. I suppose, if you trust others to follow the golden rule, there isn't much to worry and you can prepare as you see fit. Though, when has that ever been the case, for very long?

And, worse, mental health problems. Most serial killers were abused as children. Most homeless people have mental health problems. This is what's sickening about people with privileged upbringings claiming a la the Monopoly effect that they're just hard-working and those left behind just don't want it enough. — Kenosha Kid

:up:

I feel bad but that's not going to be enough, is it? Reminds me of Kant's ethics. He wanted to reduce morality to logic and I believe he explicitly mentioned that being a bad person was tantamount to believing in a contradiction. That's why criminals, bad folk in general, when they do whatever it is that they do, smart people react with, "are you insanse?" or "you must be raving mad!" There's lunacy in evil (werewolves?) - senseless acts of violence.

See :point: Zinloos Geweld.

Well, we certainly have agreements on that point! I have been looking into this problem, and it appears there is a strong argument that God puts thoughts in our heads. That is a different topic, but one that might be worth exploring. — Athena

Good to know.

Ouch, ouch :gasp: please that is a totally different subject, but boy would it interesting to explore that. The US has a terrible record of incarcerating mentally disturbed people. Perhaps that goes with our unrealistic notion of a god and humans? What you said about intent, separates the Rittenhouse trial from the trial of the 3 men behaving as the KKK hunting down the coon. — Athena

You've got it backwards as far as I can tell.

3. Did R go well out of his way to unjustifiably put himself in harm's way?

Yes. — 180 Proof

This is what I would call an unclear statement without any attempt to mark out what is meant by ‘unjustifiably put himself in harm’s way’. Where is the line between justified and unjustified? To say he went ‘well out of his way’ is unclear. — I like sushi

Yeah, it was clear enough. Messed up kid in messed up society. (Didn't some cops also tell him to go home?)
Then again, doing hard time doesn't seem quite right either. Maybe that's one reason self-defense won, don't know.
A hero (of all things) he ain't. Someone needs to grow up.

In any non-Mickey Mouse country of this world, people who come face to face with random dudes waving these guns like that in public, during peace time, will immediately feel their life is in danger and attacking him would be considered self-defense. Although, I suspect that, instead of attacking them, most would either seek refuge and/or call the cops. Then, there's America. Even if it's such a tragic incident one cannot but laugh at how comic this whole thing really is.

If only we had a video of the Kenosha killings - that would go a long way in shutting us all, with our own quaint and probably utterly false theories, up.

I'm beginning to see the value of CCTV cameras, cellphone cameras, all sorts of cameras for that matter. Shoot the shooting should be the mantra in a gun-crazy country like the USA. What's the point of bragging about how technologically advanced the US of A is when you can't even take a video of a crime being committed with your cellphone, especially when everybody knew the situation was tense enough to provoke a few trigger-happy randoms with a short fuse.

You've got it backwards as far as I can tell. — TheMadFool

How do you understand things?

How do you understand things? — Athena

Not backwards! :grin: :joke:

Not backwards! :grin: :joke: — TheMadFool

What does that mean? I am really disappointed this morning. I am not seeing any post that I consider worthy of contemplation and a considerate reply. Maybe another thread will be more interesting?

What does that mean? I am really disappointed this morning. I am not seeing any post that I consider worthy of contemplation and a considerate reply. Maybe another thread will be more interesting? — Athena

I'm sorry, Athena my Goddess, if you feel that way. Your vengeful reputation precedes you and I don't wanna be in your bad books. Let's just say that I'm wrong and you're right! :smile:

I'm sorry, Athena my Goddess, if you feel that way. Your vengeful reputation precedes you and I don't wanna be in your bad books. Let's just say that I'm wrong and you're right! :smile: — TheMadFool

What is the subject of the disagreement? And I swear, I am not behind the storms that are causing major flooding in Seattle right now. I don't have a desire to judge and punish anyone, except perhaps the young kid who replied to what I said and needs to learn good manners. :lol:

:smile:

My IQ score is on the wrong side of 69 (Wechsler). Does that explain everything going on between us?

Justice was not served by the trial. — James Riley

We agree. In order for justice to have been served, the outcome...the verdict wanted for a public reprobation of the values, beliefs, and judgements which led R and, indeed, his mother, to have the kid there with a firearm in the first place. That never happened, so the public in Wisconsin has failed to reprove the beliefs, values, and judgements exhibited by R in this case.

Even so, do not think that R has gotten off scot-free. Because of having these charges on his criminal record, this kid is "fucked for life"...has done that to himself, as every type of good and meaningful job, and even most shitty jobs, will be closed to him. R will never even be able to get any type of job save maybe in construction site labor, or as some kind of organizer in the "Proud Boys" organization. Apart from winning the "Powerball" lottery, R can forget ever being wealthy. A couple of years ago, I became acquainted with a guy who is a former engineer, and who a few years back had an unfortunate and fateful late-night incident with a drunk. The drunk, a much bigger guy than my acquaintence (a pretty small guy), wanted to fistfight with him after the bars let out, and so attacked him, and started throwing punches. Long story short, the result wss that he ended up stabbing the drunk a couple of times with his folding knife. The drunk, bleeding from the gut, called the police, and there ya go...charge of attempted murder. My acquaintence was found not guilty, but today despite having an engineering degree from Vanderbilt, masters level, and a once thriving career, he cannot even get a job in a fast food restaurant. Due to issues of liability, absolutely nobody will even touch him. He has lived off his once substantial savings for the past three years or so, but they are running out, and he has no idea what the hell he is going to do. Point is, if R ever discovers some type of ambition buried deep within himself, I predict that he will soon thereafter wish he had been simply put to death for this incident. While I am glad the police didn't have to kill R to stop his carnage, R may eventually feel differently. From R's perspective, the price of his decisions will be stiff, and filled with regret.

My IQ score is on the wrong side of 69 (Wechsler). Does that explain everything going on between us? — TheMadFool

No, but I will walk away hoping this morning is just an off day and not what can be expected in the future.

That never happened, so the public in Wisconsin has failed to reprove the beliefs, values, and judgements exhibited by R in this case. — Michael Zwingli

Yeah, I read the reason the gun charge was dropped. Barrel length issue. WI law. When I was a kid out west, I could carry a long gun to hunt, but not self-defense. I suppose I could have used it for self defense while hunting. Maybe R was just hunting. But out west it's illegal to hunt people. We used to have vigilantes who hung people, but we decided to delegate to the sheriff when he did his job. Different states, different laws. Different lessons being taught. But we're learning how the game is played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR-hhat34LI

Good analysis of the case.

Overall I think the video will do a good job with the exception of saying he 'fell over' without mentioned he'd been pelted with objects and that is why he fell to the ground - it is pretty hard to squeeze in every detail though in a brief video.

The nuances in laws state to state is likely something many don't really give too much consideration (especially non-native citizens of the US as they're used to ONE law across the lands rather than multiple iterations/interpretation of one law).