I went back and checked all my posts in this thread. In not a single one did I express any indignance. — T Clark
Again, if you won't accept my own statement about my own experience of my own self, there's nothing more for us to talk about. — T Clark
Shall we test you by placing you on a desert island, alone? — baker
So what is one to do? If suicide isn't a real option, there is only the perpetual cycle. The illusion is that it can be broken. Schopenhauer deigned freedom by asceticism. That was a nice consolation-hope to provide, but it's simply training the mind to live with the existential striving-after more easily. That is all- a mental technique. It is not a metaphysical escape hatch. We are stuck until we are not. — schopenhauer1
Through meaningful engagement with the world - namely, the voluntary identification and pursuit of goals derived from one's highest ideals (and the intentional cultivation of such ideals), assuming you've had your basic physical needs met. — Aaron R
Fantasize? Worry maybe sometimes. I do read, fiction and non-fiction. I participate on the forum. I swim. I do my physical therapy exercises. — T Clark
I don't think you understand how this works, at least works for me. The motivation to do things comes from inside me. I picture a spring bubbling up from under the ground. Just because I do stuff doesn't mean I'm keeping myself busy. Sometimes nothing bubbles up, so I just pay attention and wait. It doesn't usually take long.
I guess you and schopenhauer1 lack imagination and empathy. You can't imagine other people experiencing things different from what you do. You don't seem to understand that others may feel differently.
The way I see it, there is a process to the universe in which we don’t so much serve a predestined purpose as
‘creatively intend’. — Possibility
This additional dimensionality to Schopenhauer’s approach comes from recognising a qualitative relativity to both reasonable and ethical descriptions of the human condition.
Schopenhauer’s philosophical ideas show no awareness of qualitative variability
In other words, keep yourself busy. — baker
Indeed, this is also called karma, and keeps the round of rebirth going.
All three of your examples (the ascetic, the suicide bomber, and the sage) creatively intend, hence they are bound to the round of rebirth, and thus suffering. — baker
You're missing that the various experessions of this qualitative variability still all function on the same platform, namely that of craving. — baker
Schopenhauer's view is gloomy, indeed.So what is one to do? If suicide isn't a real option, there is only the perpetual cycle. The illusion is that it can be broken. Schopenhauer deigned freedom by asceticism. That was a nice consolation-hope to provide, but it's simply training the mind to live with the existential striving-after more easily. That is all- a mental technique. It is not a metaphysical escape hatch. We are stuck until we are not. — schopenhauer1
Schopenhauer's view is gloomy, indeed.
No one has a really good solution to this, only good suggestions. And funny thing is, after we're told by Schopenhauer, we turn to other philosophers for a silver lining. A mind can do wonders without altering our surrounding. Just the shift in mind. Although a change in surrounding can temporarily alleviate it. That's why we're all escapist in one form or another. Some bury themselves in art and music, others in paid work, and still other in hobbies. — L'éléphant
What attracts our attention is usually tied to our perceived potential - our capacity to interact intentionally with the world. But in moments when we are genuinely doing nothing, fully awake and alert (such as in meditation), we are able to explore a more complete awareness of reality, inclusive of what has no need of our potential to interact. I’m not saying this is an easy state to reach, and there is certainly plenty on our radar to pull our attention back to what society says we ‘should’ be striving for. But both Buddhism and Taoism encourage an intentional stillness or emptiness that enables us to embody the quality and logic of reality, without striving. In this state, we relate to the possibility for energy to flow freely, the possibility of no suffering - and with this develop an awareness of our own creative capacity to intentionally minimise suffering in the way we connect and collaborate. The more we can embody this ‘stillness’, the more we realise that there is nothing we need to be striving-for in any moment in time - only allowing for a free flow of possible energy. — Possibility
I think it is telling that we have to "get" to some state by meditative techniques in the FIRST PLACE. Again, this is not countering anything Schopenhauer had said with my original OP quote, especially the part in bold. That is to say: Just more proof of his point that if BEING was something absolutely POSITIVE in itself, we would want for NOTHING, because BEING would be its own satisfaction. The lack at the heart of motivations and "getting caught up in the drama and affairs of this or that person, story, hobby, value". — schopenhauer1
This additional dimensionality to Schopenhauer’s approach comes from recognising a qualitative relativity to both reasonable and ethical descriptions of the human condition. Schopenhauer’s philosophical ideas show no awareness of qualitative variability - this is particularly evident in his colour theory. With a father who supposedly committed suicide and a mother who seemed far from accepting of his personal qualities, I would say this is understandable. — Possibility
You and schopenhauer1 are really pitiful. You resent anyone who isn't as miserable as you are. You can't even imagine there are people satisfied with their lives.
You two are broken and you want, demand, that we all be as broken as you are. — T Clark
If we were in a hand-to-mouth survival situation, that is all we would be consumed with...the means to putting food in our mouth, getting hydrated, and finding comfortable shelter from the elements. — schopenhauer1
This additional dimensionality to Schopenhauer’s approach comes from recognising a qualitative relativity to both reasonable and ethical descriptions of the human condition. Schopenhauer’s philosophical ideas show no awareness of qualitative variability - this is particularly evident in his colour theory. With a father who supposedly committed suicide and a mother who seemed far from accepting of his personal qualities, I would say this is understandable.
— Possibility
So how come that you have this awareness of qualitative variability, while Arthur Schopenhauer didn't have it?
Were you born with it?
Or did you learn it? — baker
From this neutral state of BEING, however, I could also choose, insofar as I am capable, to increase awareness, connection and collaboration, recognising that this perceived capacity is limited at any one time (and subject to suffering) by an ongoing condition of affect and value perception, but that such capacity expands as I increase awareness, connection and collaboration with the world from a genuine sense of compassion, of ‘suffering with’ - and in doing so predictably reduces further instances of suffering, for myself as well as others. It is this striving, insofar as it is a choice determined from a neutral state, that seems a reasonable use of my limited attention and effort, as a POSITIVE net gain across a fleeting and fragile state of BEING. It’s a small gain, but it’s better than asceticism, by my account. — Possibility
An’ though the rules of the road have been lodged
It’s only people’s games that you got to dodge
And it’s alright, Ma, I can make it
...
Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to
....
My eyes collide head-on with stuffed
Graveyards, false gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
what else can you show me?
And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They’d probably put my head in a guillotine
But it’s alright, Ma, it’s life, and life only — Dylan
You and schopenhauer1 are really pitiful. You 1. resent anyone who isn't as miserable as you are. You can't even imagine there are people satisfied with their lives.
You two are broken and you 2. want, 3. demand, that we all be as broken as you are. — T Clark
You and ShowpanhourI 4. called me a liar. Fekyez both. — T Clark
Fuck all the established agendas and trying to make life's problem a personal problem, mam. — schopenhauer1
The more we can embody this ‘stillness’, the more we realise that there is nothing we need to be striving-for in any moment in time - only allowing for a free flow of possible energy. — Possibility
All instances of suffering are a result of ignorance, isolation and exclusion. Karma refers to the quality of our interconnection with the world - it isn’t bound by ethics or this ‘round of rebirth’. The idea of ‘good’ or ‘bad’ karma is a Western notion.
The suicide bomber intends to put an end to his limited awareness of suffering by removing that awareness, along with certain other aspects of the world, by active exclusion. It is a destructive, reductionist intending that unintentionally increases suffering in the world beyond the bomber’s awareness.
The ascetic is bound by an isolated focus on their ‘individual’ round of rebirth, intending to minimise any connection they appear to have with suffering in the world. Any creative intending or karma here is isolated, and cannot extend beyond the individual, isolated from the world.
The sage recognises an underlying universal flow towards interconnection, and creatively intends to minimise suffering by maximising awareness, connection and collaboration. This is karma at work - it is not bound to rebirth, but rather highlights its limitations and extends beyond, and therefore beyond suffering. — Possibility
More existential gaslighting. YOU'RE the problem because YOU were born. It's YOUR choice. [But it wasn't].. So all the "You were created because of X, and now you must do Y because I know the truth about the world".. [Eh no]. — schopenhauer1
"You see, your following the agenda will fulfill you because you will be connecting, collaborating, and being more aware. I mean, what else choice do you have? Suicide? Griping? Being a Pessimist? [maniacal laugh]." — schopenhauer1
This is New Age stuff. I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole. — baker
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