this particular problem has been done and dusted for some time, in accordance with the fact that all geometry is indeed analytical. — Garrett Travers

“....Just as little is any principle of pure geometry analytical.....”
(CPR, B16)

Proper steelmanning, and even Socratic dialectics, needs to show how geometry/mathematics in Kant was not proof of the possibility of synthetic a priori judgements. That all geometry is analytical is beside the point, insofar as not all synthetic a priori cognitions are mathematical.

Of course. The exploitation of labor. Exorbitant profits and starvation wages. The usual. — ZzzoneiroCosm

There's nothing immoral about exorbitant profits. Wages aren't exploitation if labor is voluntary. All of that is garbage. Barrowed ideas from a plagiarist with unoriginal ideas, identifying the wrong problems. Where does this entitlement to other's property come from in you lefties spouting the words of a dead man whose ideas have cause mass genocide?

Proper steelmanning, and even Socratic dialectics, needs to show how geometry/mathematics in Kant was not proof of the possibility of synthetic a priori judgements. That all geometry is analytical is beside the point, insofar as not all synthetic a priori cognitions are mathematical. — Mww

That's a fine point. But, as I said, this particular topic, being mathematics not philosophy, isn't really my area. I'm reporting what is in the history on the subject. But, yes, completely fair.

Wages aren't exploitation if labor is voluntary. — Garrett Travers

Is labor voluntary when the laborer has to choose between starvation and working for starvation wages?

Is labor voluntary when the laborer has to choose between starvation and working for starvation wages? — ZzzoneiroCosm

From the perspective of the person offering labor through job creation? 100%. Those conditions are natural to man. Production is a rational pursuit, one in which the pursuer is entitled to the contents of his reason's product. You want to be angry about enclosure and being able to form communes free of private property claims? You blame the state that makes it so. Not the people who create jobs that you wouldn't have access to otherwise.

From the perspective of the person offering labor through job creation? 100%. — Garrett Travers

That's where we disagree. I would call it compulsory labor. Work or die.

Your view - and perhaps Rand's view as well - eschews compassion for the billions of unskilled laborers at the heart of all wealth-creation and - accumulation.

Thanks for the fair point, but nevertheless, synthetic a priori judgements are the very ground of transcendental philosophy. They are the prime refutation of Hume-ian empiricism.....that which should NOT be committed to the flames for its abstract reasoning.....and tacit support for Descartes’ rational, albeit problematic, subject/object duality.

For whatever that’s worth......

Thanks for the fair point, but nevertheless, synthetic a priori judgements are the very ground of transcendental philosophy. They are the prime refutation of Hume-ian empiricism.....that which should NOT be committed to the flames for its abstract reasoning.....and tacit support for Descartes’ rational, albeit problematic, subject/object duality.

For whatever that’s worth...... — Mww

Sure, of course. Had the criticism of Kant been directed at that, and not his math, I would have argued in response from his position. However, the one comment for Kant so far has been on math, lol.

That's where we disagree. I would call it compulsory labor. Work or die. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Compulsory labor requires that others force you to work. If you being required to work in accordance with your nature, and the nature of the world demanding you use your reason to devise a framework of behavior to navigate it, that's not compulsory. That'd be like saying you have compulsory sight, that you're compelled to wear glasses. It's like... No, people make glasses so people in your position can see, and because of that, they're rich, and you're this way by nature, no one forced you. Deal with it. Same thing goes for labor. You are not forced to work by the people employing you, it's an absolutely absurd position.

Your view - and perhaps Rand's view as well - eschews compassion for the billions of unskilled laborers at the heart of all wealth-creation and - accumulation. — ZzzoneiroCosm

It does not eschew compassion, it negates humans being duty-bound to give it. And no, most wealth creation starts as individually conducted private enterprise. I do not, and neither did Rand, eschew any compassion for people genuinely trying to make their lives better. It's just, she holds that for compassion to be a virtue it must be applied to those you value as also representing your own, or being aligned with you own values. For example, I have no compassion for unskilled laborers who are satisfied with remaining that way. It's really more like selective compassion, than anything else. But, this compulsory-by-shame compassion that these left types preach, is simply evil. You have no idea what kind of people you could be providing compassion to. I have an unskilled laborer in-law in my immediate purview who just cheated on his wife and abandoned her over night with all of the bills, you gonna give him compassion? I have a cousin who's an unskilled worker who has abused her kids dementedly, they're not allowed to see her anymore, you gonna give her compassion? That's what we of the mind are highlighting. Not that compassion is to be dispensed with entirely.

I have no compassion for unskilled laborers who are satisfied with remaining that way. It's really more like selective compassion, than anything else. — Garrett Travers

Got it. Selective compassion.

Got it. Selective compassion. — ZzzoneiroCosm

That is correct.

That is correct. — Garrett Travers

Would you say Rand shares this view? Interested in a direct quote from Rand.

Would you say Rand shares this view? Interested in a direct quote from Rand. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I don't have a direct quote off mind. I believe she mentioned as much in a ninterview on one of Donahue's episodes with her. But, it's kind of a recurring theme in both Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. For example, Roark meets a young artist whose been beaten down by society whom he finds broken and defeated, and Roark sits with him all night while he cries. They become best friends and Roark pays for him to live and try to sell his artwork. Yes, 100% I believe Rand agrees with exactly my assessment, or did.

I believe Rand agrees with exactly my assessment, or did. — Garrett Travers

Thanks.

If you bump into a more corroborative Rand reference in the future, feel free to send it along.

:smile:

Thanks.

If you bump into a more corroborative Rand reference in the future, feel free to send it along. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Let me go see If I can't find something for you.

Here's her from an article in Playboy years ago:

I regard compassion as proper only toward those who are innocent victims, but not toward those who are morally guilty. If one feels compassion for the victims of a concentration camp, one cannot feel it for the torturers. If one does feel compassion for the torturers, it is an act of moral treason toward the victims.

But, it's a pretty recurring theme in multiple forms throughout her work.

Here's — Garrett Travers

Sweet, thanks

innocent victims, but not toward those who are morally guilty. — Garrett Travers

I wonder if unskilled laborers would be considered innocent victims or morally guilty.

I wonder if unskilled laborers would be considered innocent victims or morally guilty. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Again, it depends on their behavior. How would you rank the people I described early? My in-law and my cousin? Let's just for argument's sake, accept that I told you the perfect truth. Are you gonna show them compassion as unskilled laborers?

My in-law and my cousin? — Garrett Travers

I don't see a reason to link their immoral behavior to their status as unskilled laborer. Those are separate things.

As a social worker and psychotherapist in training, yes, I feel compassion for all kinds of suffering, even suffering infused with immorality. Suffering is suffering.

I don't see a reason to link their immoral behavior to their status as unskilled laborer. Those are separate things.

As a social worker and psychotherapist in training, yes, I feel compassion for all kinds of suffering, even suffering infused with immorality. Suffering is suffering. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Right, whereas we assert that compassion is a morally valenced idea that requires that assessment. Unskilled worker is simply a characteristic, like hair color, or knowledge level on something. How you act morally is the standard by which compassion should be distributed. You wouldn't regard Hitler as subject for compassion, simply because he ended up an unskilled worker, or poor.

You wouldn't regard Hitler as subject for compassion, — Garrett Travers

Absolutely, I would. His was a life of intense suffering. Poor tyrant.

Obviously his deeds and ideology are the acme of immorality and ought to be denounced in the strongest terms.

But the suffering of the lost, deranged, delusional, inferior-feeling, man, Adolph - I feel a lot of compassion for the suffering individual I meet when I pick up Mein Kampf.

So no compassion for unskilled laborers because just because Hitler was an unskilled laborer doesn't mean he deserves compassion. OK got it.

Absolutely, I would. His was a life of intense suffering. Poor tyrant.

Obviously his deeds and ideology are the acme of immorality and ought to be denounced in the strongest terms.

But the suffering of the lost, deranged, delusional, inferior-feeling, man, Adolph - I feel a lot of compassion for the suffering individual I meet when I pick up Mein Kampf. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I don't. I regard it as a shame there's not a hell for that cock sucker to burn in forever. When I think of the small children naked and screaming, stuffed like fucking sauages in concrete building in Poland, with a deisel engine pouring fumes in to murder them, and then their naked and beaten brethren being forced to pull them all out, dead, and place them in trenches; only to be made a few months later, when the corpses of their people and family were stinking in the summer heat to be exumed, rotting, from the very ground they placed them in, piece by rotten piece, to be fed to a fire that would hide their crime because the Americans and Russians were coming... That kind of settles that for me. I just described to you a daily routine on the sands of Treblinka, sands that he walked on and oversaw.. But, sure. Compassion is a duty. My, my....

So no compassion for unskilled laborers because just because Hitler was an unskilled laborer doesn't mean he deserves compassion. OK got it. — theRiddler

Got it, ok.

Compassion is a duty. — Garrett Travers

Not a duty. Feelings of universal compassion are a reflection of a more studied or nuanced understanding of neurosis and psychosis.

Not a duty. Feelings of universal compassion are a reflection of a more studied or nuanced understanding of neurosis and psychosis — ZzzoneiroCosm

Go on...

Compulsory labor requires that others force you to work. — Garrett Travers

Does this include mind control?

Does this include mind control? — Average

If such is real. But, I was particularly highlighting that the concept of "starvation-wages" and "compulsory work" are not a thing when one volunteers to sign a labor contract. And that describes every worker in America, just about.

okay I was just checking.