Einstein's space time: Space bending?? Nonsense. The concept of bending presupposes space. I am not a physicist, but it is an analytic certainty that if something bends, it must bend in a medium which allows things to bend IN it. — Constance
a perverse belief in a logically structured world can generate a false sense of paradox. — Constance
Or is that your point? — T Clark
The point? It is a diffuse point, sort of bound up in the ideas presented, each one in its own right a challenge, but the general point would be that the perversity extends from the thinking that logic can serve as a structured way to speak about the actual world. — Constance
General relativity is something different. GR is a theory, a model, which very effectively predicts the behavior of certain aspects of the world. Talking about space bending is a metaphor that helps people picture and understand what is happening. GR redefined what "space" means. I don't see it as a paradox at all. If you were talking about the different interpretations of quantum mechanics, I would be more likely to agree with you. — T Clark
On the contrary, misrecognized misuses (e.g. reification) of logic, or grammar, generates "paradoxes". — 180 Proof
On the contrary, misrecognized misuses (e.g. reification) of logic, or grammar, generates "paradoxes". — 180 Proof
Logic itself is the paradox. — Constance
I don't think so, I don't see how, especially insofar as logic consists of syntact translations of tautologies and functions like scaffolding for building mathematical models of physical systems.... isn't science's claims about being about the world a hidden reification of logic? — Constance
Usually this expression is used in reference to spacetime and depends on a certain metric. Objects, however, become distorted by gravity and speed. Length contraction, etc. — jgill
Space is real, and I don't think space bending is a metaphor. — Constance
So, I say, "He is an animal!" and the sense of it depends on the person in question and animals being both familiar. — Constance
Is it wrong to think empirical science dis really not about the actualities lie before us. After all, the actual world is not a quantified presence; language and logic make it so; — Constance
isn't science's claims about being about the world a hidden reification of logic? — Constance
The curvature of space. Is this an idea that makes sense, not as it is theorized about, but as a singular concept? — Constance
What do you do with theory that explains things well, but is radically counterintuitive? — Constance
What do Zeno's arrow paradox, God, Einstein's theory of time space, and performative contradictions have in common? — Constance
Agreed that it can't make the case that it's rational to be rational on pain of circulus in probando. I'm telling you, I'm speaking the truth! How can you prove that, we ask? Well, I vouch for myself, I guarantee that I don't/never lie! WTFery!
The paradox is this: logic is the gold standard for proof but it can't prove itself without committing a fallacy, begging the question. I can't be trusted. Does this get an A for honesty and an F for intelligence? Logic, as it turns out, paradoxically, is a fool! The whole point to its creation and development was to build trust in a system that would always deliver the goods when it comes to truth. Yet, here we are, logic can't justify itself. — Agent Smith
... isn't science's claims about being about the world a hidden reification of logic?
— Constance
I don't think so, I don't see how, especially insofar as logic consists of syntact translations of tautologies and function like scaffolding for building mathematical models of physical systems. — 180 Proof
Space is real, and I don't think space bending is a metaphor.
— Constance
Seems to me, most ideas refer back, or at least originally referred back, to something at human scale. That certainly makes sense with "space." Of course, there's always been space - the three-dimensional volume in a room, etc. I wonder if the development of the idea of space was changed by the development of Cartesian geometry. It certainly seems like it would have been as people learned that there were long distances between those bright things up in the sky. Science and science fiction probably changed the meaning of the word even more. General relatively just continued those changes and added another dimension. So, no. Space is not real, if by that you mean that it hasn't changed and can't change again.
And of course space bending is a metaphor. People can bend a tree branch or a piece of metal, but you can't bend air. Until, suddenly, you can. — T Clark
Is it wrong to think empirical science dis really not about the actualities lie before us. After all, the actual world is not a quantified presence; language and logic make it so;
— Constance
If this is true, and I think it is, why can't spacetime bend?
isn't science's claims about being about the world a hidden reification of logic?
— Constance
Everything put into language is a reification of something. Every word is reification. Reification and metaphor, that's all there is. I guess reification is the same thing as metaphor. — T Clark
Science is all about finding out situations where our intuition is wrong. Intuition doesn't come from the great beyond, it can be changed by experience and understanding. Do you also doubt special relativity and quantum mechanics? Those theories are certainly counter-intuitive. — T Clark
Zeno's arrow proves spacetime is continuous. The problem with discrete spacetime is particles moving in it and time advancing. Spacetime can't be broken up though and the nature of space remains a mystery.
Einstein's theory of spacetime showed we can actually bend space by mass. How mass informs space remains a mystery in GR.
The gods created spacetime. The reasons for their grounds remain a mystery.
That's a triplet mysteries. Performative contradiction, like I'm dead, are no mystery though. — EugeneW
This, however, wasn't/isn't possible with the dichotomy paradox. Logic clearly demonstrates motion is impossible; observation, to our dismay, shows that motion is not only possible but actual (ambulando solvitur).
As you can see, a pre-Zeno reconciliation of rationalism and empiricism is impossible. We have to make a choice: believe our minds or believe our legs, but not both! We all know Zeno's preference: motion, in the Parmenidean umiverse, is an illusion. I guess this means Zeno, Parmenideans, were true blue rationalists. — Agent Smith
As I see it, to bend absolutely requires a medium in which a thing can bend. — Constance
I think quantum physicists "doubt" quantum mechanics, meaning they really don't understand it because it itself is not clear...yet. — Constance
They presuppose space. Space bending is like saying logic implying: to imply is to USE logic. It cannot be its own presupposition. — Constance
If you think we are the gods, then fine. Maybe we are. — Constance
It's a physical concept. Our perception of space is like it really is. We can move in it. Objects can move in it. It's the sauce between matter. It's the stuff objects can move in. — EugeneW
To observe at all is to condition the object — Constance
People used to think that there must be a luminiferous aether because they thought that electromagnetic waves had to have a medium to propagate through. Turns out they were wrong. I don't see how your inability to conceive of space bending without any outside space to bend in is any different. — T Clark
I don't think that any reputable physicist doubts quantum mechanics at all. They may argue about the interpretation, but I think that is a metaphysical argument, not a scientific one. Fact is, it works. As they say, shut up and calculate. It doesn't make any difference if you can understand why. Science isn't about understanding why things happen, it's about understanding how things happen. Your "...yet" is a bit too cute for my taste. Most physicists don't think further study will make QM any less counterintuitive. The world is not obligated to arrange itself in a way that fits into your way of thinking about it. You can't change the world, but you can change your thinking. — T Clark
I dont think we are the gods. I think they made us. They had good reason. There are as many gods as creatures in the universe. We just play the game they played already eternally. From virus gods to hominid gods. The god story will be revealed shortly... Exclusively herd on Peee Eees Eeeef! — EugeneW
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