Calling it a "mood" seems like it is being shrugged off or taken too lightly. — 0 thru 9
I did not evangelise at all, I didn't ask anyone to convert to Christianity. In fact, the video I posted is of a hard-core atheist (Jacques Fresco) whom I admire. The book I posted also has nothing to do with Christianity. So please. Get your facts straight. Mr. No Blushin'.Evangelism is against the site guidelines, so tread carefully. — Noblosh
And? Where have I evangelised? I just made the point that a certain political persuasion is disempowering - I made no reference to whether it's true, worth holding, the right or wrong one etc. There are beliefs which are disempowering, and that's just a fact. If you believe that because of so and so factor of your environment (say discrimination, racism, etc.) you are depressed or in a bad situation, then that is disempowering. It's because of that situation that you are depressed, it's not within your control - so you don't do anything except cry about your disadvantages. But, if your belief, on the other hand, is that how I feel, and how I react depends on myself - I am in control - and not whatever external circumstance, then that is empowering - it allows you to free yourself.Political persuasion is considered evangelism by the site guidelines. But I'm really not the one to judge what would constitute an offense on this site, I've just given you an advice. — Noblosh
Spare me your pooh-pooh. You don't welcome advices from me, point taken.And just some advice from me: I don't think you're in any position to judge or give me advice about forum rules, etc. You barely have 30 posts, you're a new member, take your time and understand how things go around here first. — Agustino
False impression or not isn't even what's under the discussion. What's under discussion is solely what brings the best performance in you? What maximises your chances of escaping your current circumstances for some better ones? What maximises your chances of beating the odds?it gives you the false impression that you're in control, fully responsible for both your successes and your failures when people in fact depend on each other and are affected by external circumstances for better or worst. We're not free just because we think we are, we're in a constant constraint by factors beyond our direct control. — Noblosh
An illness is a medical condition, depression is a mental disorder, mental disorders are not medical conditions. Clear enough? Maybe I should be straightforward: depression is neither an illness, a sickness nor a disease. — Noblosh
↪Agustino Evangelism is against the site guidelines, so tread carefully. — Noblosh
It's because of that situation that you are depressed, it's not within your control - so you don't do anything except cry about your disadvantages. But, if your belief, on the other hand, is that how I feel, and how I react depends on myself - I am in control - and not whatever external circumstance, then that is empowering - it allows you to free yourself. — Agustino
The talk about 'mood' I was quoting from elsewhere, in work by Matthew Ratcliffe, doesn't take things lightly. It's about 'deep mood' which he distinguishes from everyday talk about mood..
Such a 'deep mood' is our very way of being in the world. In this sense I (think I) completely agree with the outlook of Noble Dust. (Philosophically my phrasing comes from Heidegger, but he thought our deep mood was 'angst', an odd formulation) To the clinician a report of 'depression' may be a 'malady', a 'mood disorder', and perhaps they are bound to look at it that way, given that people come to them saying, This is how I am, what can you do for me? - But to the person concerned it may be the way the world is.
Then, for me, it's up to the person concerned whether they address how they're feeling as a 'malady' -because they wish they could feel better about things - or as a 'way the world is'. (The melancholy exception would be if they seem to stop being able to function as a human being, or express suicidal thoughts that another person.)
The value of a cbt-type approach, if the person decides to try out the 'malady' angle, is that cbt is based on a modern-day version of Stoicism which, as I understand it, tries to enable you to cordon off for yourself zones in which you can still enjoy or at least feel rewarded by life, instead of being consumed by the darkness of your feelings about life and the world. I confess I've tried it without success, and the evidence is only of short-term benefit, but it definitely benefits some people. — mcdoodle
I can't help but notice almost everyone aligning in the same group, which believes that depression is a mood. — Question
The thing is that not everyone responds to medication, or even if they do respond the efficacy isn't great enough. The same however doesn't seem to apply to talk therapy, which is more work but tends to get the job done more effectively and persistently. — Question
So, do we know what it is? We have to wait until we know what it is to call it what it is? And Question is calling it "this" or "that", which is, what? What it is? Or not? What? — Noble Dust
I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone was arguing otherwise. Actually, that's a hallmark of this problem; there are those who have never experienced depression. Those people, in fact, don't know what the experience is like, and can therefore add no meaningful thoughts into the discussion. — Noble Dust
Okay, so then you agree the work is in changing their beliefs - namely that their beliefs are at fault for their condition. Would I be right in saying that?If they don't believe they are in control and are at the mercy of external events, telling them to snap out of it probably will not work. — Bitter Crank
Exactly, so it's our beliefs that influence the outcomes to these situations we're discussing.People are sometimes taught passivity and inability, but fairly often we teach ourselves further lessons of inability. We structure our thinking about our 'situation' as a no-win negative situation, and then we get stuck. Maybe we don't like our job and we don't believe there are good and better jobs out there. We don't do well at the job, then people at work get angry at us, but we don't care, and down the spiral we go. We could change our ideas about work, jobs, and our place in them -- without giving up everything else we believe. — Bitter Crank
Yes, I agree with this as well. This is an important part, but, I believe it is secondary to having affirming and positive beliefs. Beliefs are the sword, having no expectations is the shield. What do I mean?Maybe she wishes that her children would pay more attention to her at Christmas, Thanksgiving, her birthday, or Mothers Day. They habitually don't, but every year she expects that they will, and is freshly crushed each year when they don't -- once again -- perform as desired. She gets angry each time, and reaffirms her suspicion that her children don't care about her, and down the spiral she goes. She could revise her expectations and recognize that her children probably won't fulfill her expectations. — Bitter Crank
Yes, but how can you not recognise the constraints you're under? Most people are very good at this part - too good. They always find the reasons why something can't be done.If we don't recognize the constraints we're under, positive thinking can lead us so far. We can better our condition with that type of thinking, sure, but that's not what depressed people crave for, they crave for purpose, not status and you fail to understand that and so your commentary is off the point. — Noblosh
This is a very clear characterisation that immediately suggests to me a way of understanding depression in terms of an active response to an intolerable and inescapable situation. One creates a dissociated identity as a refuge to preserve oneself from an overwhelming world. 'I' take refuge in the safety of an inner world that cannot be touched by the outer world, only to discover that I have become isolated and cannot in turn touch the world. And from there, one can see at once that there is no help for this dissociated self, either from itself or from the other in the outer world, and the only solution is for it to die.
Fortunately, this psychological death can be accomplished without physical death; indeed physical death does not do it at all. The inner self cannot by any means reach the outer world, but the inner self can end, and then one finds one is already in and part of the outer world. This is a terrifying prospect, to become, as one once was, completely vulnerable to the world, and this terror is what makes it seem impossible. — unenlightened
This is Jacques Fresco. One of my personal heros. He just died about 10 days ago. At 101 years old. How did he make it to that age? Because he worked. And worked. And used his mind and body, and didn't let them go to waste. — Agustino
Even a hardline Humean would not go so far; reason is the slave of passion, but the slave can still help the master. If one is unhappy that there is no sugar for the coffee, reason can usefully direct one to the grocer rather than the iron-monger for the remedy. The curiosity of depression is that it is in some way an anti-passion; it does not seem to motivate very well. — unenlightened
How enjoyable to feel the vigor and strength running through your body, to feel that you can rely on it, that it can take you wherever you ask it. — Agustino
Once they understand their own self in a positive and affirming way. — Agustino
The principles that are required to solve each are simple. But most people don't put in the effort (both intellectual and physical) required to get through with them OR they're not willing to go through the physical and emotional pain necessary to solve them - why don't they? There can be multiple reasons, but all return to a lack of self-esteem and a fear of pain/suffering. — Agustino
I would argue that depression is so hard to treat because we are in some sense the slave to our passions. How else would you explain the difficulty in treating depression? — Question
Okay I understand you. So can a depressed person provide reasons for considering those beliefs valid at face value? For example:These are all belief's about oneself and the world. Simply saying that none of them are true is just rubbish because one (a depressed individual) already supposes them valid on face value. — Question
Another was something my father used to often quote from Thoreau, that 'most people live lives of quiet desperation' (which I'm sure he often felt.) — Wayfarer
This is a very radical position; one does not normally require that a doctor suffers from every complaint he treats, let alone a philosophical enquirer. But there is certainly some validity, to the extent at least that those who pontificate without either experience or listening will probably miss the mark. — unenlightened
This is a very clear characterisation that immediately suggests to me a way of understanding depression in terms of an active response to an intolerable and inescapable situation. One creates a dissociated identity as a refuge to preserve oneself from an overwhelming world. 'I' take refuge in the safety of an inner world that cannot be touched by the outer world, only to discover that I have become isolated and cannot in turn touch the world. And from there, one can see at once that there is no help for this dissociated self, either from itself or from the other in the outer world, and the only solution is for it to die.
Fortunately, this psychological death can be accomplished without physical death; indeed physical death does not do it at all. The inner self cannot by any means reach the outer world, but the inner self can end, and then one finds one is already in and part of the outer world. This is a terrifying prospect, to become, as one once was, completely vulnerable to the world, and this terror is what makes it seem impossible. — unenlightened
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